We Have the Majority: Danielle Moodie & Wajahat Ali
January 12th, 2023
“Our work is to continue to make people actualize their power.”
Danielle Moodie is a cultural connoisseur, a political junkie, and, in addition to Democracy-ish, also hosts the Woke AF Daily podcast. Wajahat Ali is a Daily Beast columnist, public speaker, recovering attorney, and author. His most recent book is Go Back To Where You Came From: And, Other Helpful Recommendations on Becoming American. We discuss the struggle toward a multiracial democracy and the role of civic action to achieve it.
Despite many years of disinformation and misinformation, abortion rights and defense of democracy are kitchen table issues for a majority of Americans. They are the reason we did not see a red wave in the 2022 midterm elections. White rage is ascending because we are making steady progress toward a multiracial democracy that fundamentally centers justice and equity for all people.
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Danielle Moodie & Wajahat Ali
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producers: Zack Travis and Sara Burningham
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Waj & Danielle Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:00] Before we get to the show, we'd like to shout out the Best of the Left podcast. It's unlike anything else out there because it's all about curation rather than creation. Listen to the best of the left wherever you get your podcasts.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:18] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos. If podcasts had siblings or cousins, today's guests would be part of the family. Danielle Moodie and Wajahat Ali are the hosts of Democracy-ish, a podcast that's dedicated to fighting for democracy and preserving your sanity. Danielle is a cultural connoisseur, political junkie, and in addition to Democracy-ish also hosts the Woke AF Daily podcast. Wajahat is a Daily Beast columnist, public speaker, recovering attorney, and author. His most recent book is Go Back To Where You Came From, and Other Helpful Recommendations on Becoming American. Welcome to Future Hindsight. Thank you both for joining us.
Danielle Moodie: [00:01:14] Thank you so much for having us.
Wajahat Ali: [00:01:16] Thank you. Thank you.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:17] So I'm really looking forward to learning from you in this conversation, because I feel as though we rarely highlight preserve your sanity, preserve your mental health, right, as one of our action items for civic engagement. And we probably should explore that more often. In fact, thinking about it, one of the core reasons I started Future Hindsight was to try to cling to my own sanity as the world became more stressful and events more alarming. What prompted you to start Democracy-ish?
Danielle Moodie: [00:01:48] The demise of our democracy, frankly. It was the possibility that Donald Trump -- this was ahead of his election as president when he was announcing that he was running for office -- and the likelihood that somebody who was just so outwardly, in my humble opinion, anti American anti democracy, anti racial equity, anti LGBTQ plus. I mean, the list goes on and on. The fact that he could be competitive, let alone win the presidency is what sparked the need for Democracy-ish.
Wajahat Ali: [00:02:26] Danielle needed a South Asian Robin to her Batman.
Danielle Moodie: [00:02:29] Yes.
Wajahat Ali: [00:02:29] And so she went down the list and she tried Fareed Zakaria and Hasan Minhaj and Riz Ahmed and Mindy Kaling. And they all said no. And she's like, I'll get this guy Warbalot. And she was like, "Hey, Warbalot, do you like democracy?" I said, "Sure." And so we joined up and we've been doing it, this iteration for the past year, where last month Donald Trump, who's still the 2024 presumptive GOP nominee. I'll believe it when they say they're rid of him. I'll believe it when I see it. He openly said he wants to terminate, not suspend, terminate the Constitution. And when you have the former president and the still the leader of, I still consider him the leader until I see DeSantis, you know, like literally just like take over his body, and Donald Trump is in prison, which we haven't seen yet. I don't think we'll see it. He's still the leader of the entire movement, say that they want to terminate the Constitution and it's kind of forgotten by Day Two. That's when you know, your democracy is under assault. And dictionary.com, their word of the year, folks, is gaslighting. And so our podcast wants to make sure that you, the listener, are not crazy. Yeah, you're not being gaslit. Your concern, your fears, your anxiety are very real and that there is a forum where people will tell it to you straight, try to fight for democracy and as we also said, preserve your sanity because it's also important, as you fight, that you also find time for peace, solace and joy. Very critical.
Mila Atmos: [00:03:56] Yeah, well, everything that you said just now, totally spot on, of course. But, you know, I've been thinking about the fact that there is very little reporting aside from people like us, talking about what Trump said about the Constitution. And I feel like the mainstream media is really not framing it properly if they do talk about it. And I have been thinking about like, well, what would be the proper frame? And, you know, something that actually tells you this is... It's not just a little warning. It's not just like another crazy thing that Trump said, but this is something, in my opinion, much more serious and much more alarming than before. It's one thing to say, you know, brown people are bad people and they're rapists and we need to ban them from coming here. It's another thing to say we need to get rid of the Constitution. I think that's - those are those are fundamentally different kinds of things to say. One is just vilifying one
group of people that they want to scapegoat this week or next week. But another thing to say, we actually want to make sure we can install myself as a dictator.
Danielle Moodie: [00:05:03] Yeah, I think that, you know, what is really troubling about mainstream media and this is one of the reasons why Waj and I do Democracy-ish? The troubling thing about mainstream media is that we have to understand that everything that they do is about ratings, right? The idea of the fourth estate and the responsibility of journalists to tell the electorate the truth, to provide them with digestible information so that they can make decisions about their daily lives is no longer the goal of mainstream media. The goal of mainstream media is clicks, ratings, and money. Right? And at the end of the day, I remember being in the halls of a network and being told that Donald Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for ratings, right? And so when you have that mentality that is at play, then you're not going to frame things in a way that would have people open up their eyes because Donald Trump, before he even made his comment on Truth Social and then now he's backpedaling because Republicans have had, finally, some type of tepid response to saying, you know, we believe in the Constitution. Donald Trump has been telling us for the last seven years he doesn't believe in the Constitution. His actions and his words have told us that he does not believe in the fundamentals of the Constitution. Right. He does not believe in equity. He does not believe in justice. He does not believe in a free press. He does not believe in the ability of people to be able to gather, to assemble. Right. To protest the government, as we saw when he had the police and military aides trample over protesters in Lafayette Square. Right. So we have to remember the things that Donald Trump has done. And listen, you know, the truth about dictators and authoritarians is that you need to believe what they say. Right. And he's been telling us for years that he does not believe in the principles that this nation was founded on and the perfecting of our union. So we should listen to that. And the dots should be connected by the mainstream media because that is supposed to be their job.
Mila Atmos: [00:07:11] I think this is a big disconnect for people everywhere. And the the question I have here specifically about the media and since you were in the halls of media, Danielle, is do they really not realize that if we have a dictatorship, the free press is gone and these media outlets are gone forever? I feel like this is the logical next step, right? Or like, how can they square that circle?
Wajahat Ali: [00:07:34] I have this joke. It's a dark joke that once they put us all in camps, especially the media, right, whom they refer to as enemy of the people, which for those who are listening to our students of history, was used by Stalin and fascists against anyone in the media who was critical, which then led to a dehumanization, and the assault and arrest of those very same media personalities and journalists. Right. My dark humor is that once they put us in camps, these access journalists, they'll go to their captives and they'll stick out their microphone from the bars and they'll be like, "Hey, hey, what are you going to do to us?" And the guard's going to be like, "We're going to kill you tomorrow." "Can you give me the scoop? Can I be the first one to report it?" And you're like, "Sure, go ahead." It's an ecosystem where the North Star is not truth. The North Star is not reporting facts. The North Star is ratings, money, and access to power. And you say, "Oh, Wajahat, you're just being critical." No, just listen to CBS News earlier in the year where the memo was leaked, where the CBS president said, "We need more MAGA Republicans because we believe Republicans will win Congress," which is why they then gave a big fat contract to Mick Mulvaney, who was part of the gaslighting team of the Trump administration. And so the bar is low to the point where a year and a half ago I was auditioning for this show that never got made, like a new version of "Politically Incorrect," and they were trying to find two liberals and two conservatives. And the producer told me that it's been so hard to find a conservative; that we've lowered the bar to the point where we're just trying to find someone who, A, believes that Trump lost the 2020 election and B isn't an open white nationalist. So I think you can go half white nationalist, but just don't go full white nationalist, you know, go half Hitler, just don't go full Hitler. And so we see all the institutions, Mila, bend the knee, as always, to cater to what is a radicalized movement for the sake of power, access, and money. And finally, to answer your question succinctly, they believe just like the rich and the powerful and the wealthy, "oh, they won't come after us. They're our friends. It won't affect me. It won't affect my family." And you'll see the group that really warned America about Trump, as Danielle was saying, were people of color. For seven years we were the ones warning this country and we had the clarion call. And another dark humor, I say, is that if Danielle and I are like Paul Reveres and we're on the horse warning everyone, they'll shoot us. They're like "aah, a Black woman and an invader. Kill them!" And we're like, "We were just trying to help you, argh" which the same as it ever was when it comes to women and people of color in this country. We have to love a country that doesn't love us back, and we still fight for it.
Mila Atmos: [00:10:21] Yeah, well, so how do you connect this, you know, everything we just talked about here right now about the mainstream media to what you do, because like you said, we people of color, progressives, are still screaming from the rooftops. But do you worry about being in an echo chamber like the people who listen to you, you know, are really sort of self-selected, if you will?
Danielle Moodie: [00:10:44] I don't worry about being in an echo chamber, because I think that the point of the work that we're doing is trying to activate people who think that they are powerless. The goal of the Republican Party and of the right is to make people fearful of their neighbors, fearful of themselves, fearful, as Waj will say, of their shadows, because their shadows are black, fearful of everything and distrustful. And what happens in that situation is that you feel like you have no power, you have no voice. That is the opposite of what we understand a true democracy to be. And so, if there are people who listen to us, they don't necessarily all just blindly agree. I think that there are people who listen and then they have these aha moments, like, "Wait a minute, I can do something. Wait a minute. We all have platforms, whether we have five followers or 5 million," right? There is somebody that we can wake up. There is somebody that we can make conscious to the destruction of our democracy, discrimination and hate, that we can activate. Right. And I think that when we look at the fact that in this country, the majority of people who are eligible to vote do not. Right. When we think about the fact that the reason why we did not have a red wave in the midterm elections is because Generation Z came out like gangbusters to vote against whatever the pollsters were imagining that they would not do. And so what we're working towards is activation, because when people are educated and then they are activated, they are less likely to be taken advantage of. They are less likely to fall for the rope a dope Tthat is all the Republicans deal in. That -- and white supremacy. So, you know, I think that our work is to continue to make people actualize their power.
Wajahat Ali: [00:12:51] And I also think, you know, when you said echo chamber, I've always believed that we're in the majority, but we've been gaslit into believing that we are some radical fringe extremists, like living in the bubble, granola-eating like vegan freaks. Nothing wrong with granola eating vegan freaks. Some of my best friends are granola eating vegan freaks, right? And the talking points that we put forward, they're like, "Oh, these are just so out there." But Danielle and I, on our podcast, for months we've been telling Democrats that abortion rights and defense of democracy are kitchen
table issues. And if you message on it passionately, and you fight for it, you will mobilize the majority to come out. And you will see that the red wave might be become a red trickle. Lo and behold, ladies and gentlemen, what happened? Look at in December, they came out with the polls and said defense of democracy was a top three issue that mobilized people. It seems that losing a 50-year constitutionally protected right really pisses off the majority of human beings, especially the youth, and gets the youth out to vote. And so I believe we're not in an echo chamber. I think we're actually reflecting the frustrations, the yearnings, the hopes, the dreams, the passion of the majority that cows down to this radicalized, weaponized minority with... Going back to your last question, Mila, for those who aren't part of this media ecosystem, the way the sausage is made is they create a both sides false equivalence. It's like the peanut cartoon where Charlie Brown says, "hey, Lucy, you promise this time you won't lift the football?" And Lucy goes, "Yup." And then Charlie runs and what happens? She lifts the football. That's the Republicans, right? And then they always work the refs. Working the refs for those who don't know the sports terminology is always whining and complaining to the point where the refs and umpires feel so nervous to do a both sides fair analysis that they'll platform two voices. You'll have 99% of people who believe in climate change and then 1% freak who thinks it's a hoax. And they're like, "well, we got to do both sides. God forbid if they think we're biased." And the job of media and the job of our institutions isn't to sit there as fair, neutral arbiters of truth and say, "well, one side says it's raining and one side said it's not raining. We'll leave it at that." Your job is to stick your head out the window and see if it's raining and reported on that. So our job is to stick our head out the window, say, "hey, it's not raining. It's a frigging hurricane. And I'm warning all of you that is going to come and topple over all our buildings. Run!" And we're dealing with people who are like, "It's fine. It's just a drizzle."
Mila Atmos: [00:15:19] Yeah, it's not a drizzle. Although working the refs, I really feel like the referees are always calling it for the side that complains.
Wajahat Ali: [00:15:27] Yeah,
Mila Atmos: [00:15:27] I feel like that's actually really also true here, right? The mainstream media is always calling it essentially for the Republicans. Even, you know, all of this gaslighting that we were referring to in terms of, you know, the red wave coming. But it didn't come. Like it just it didn't happen that way. And and we were all,
you know, led to believe it was kind of a foregone conclusion. I am confident that it's suppressed a lot of votes, that a lot of people thought, "oh, whatever, it's. It doesn't matter. I'm not going to go out and vote now because I know that Republicans are going to win." And that has proven not to be true. But that goal that Danielle mentioned earlier of activating people is exactly what was on my mind when I started this podcast, Future Hindsight. And we say it's about what you can do that is more than voting and short of running for office. So in your mind, what's like something that people miss. You know, you talked about how much power actually everyday people have. What is it that people miss when they think about democracy and they think about voting in this country?
Danielle Moodie: [00:16:32] I think that people miss a lot of things, actually. And I say that because I think what folks have to understand first is that it's purposeful. We don't teach civics in this country in a way that is meant to have an educated citizenry and that is purposefully done. As a former educator, I will tell you that one of the reasons why I wanted to be an educator and then move into education policy is because I believe that a lot of our problems in this country stem from our K through 12 public education system and the demise of civics, the demise of history, and anything that isn't about teaching to a test or trying to create propaganda for the United States that is based in fantasy and not in fact. We see this play out in Florida. We're seeing it play out in Texas and in other red states. And if the Republicans win in 2024, they'll nationalize the idea of gaslighting and brainwashing our youth. And so it isn't so much that people don't know because they don't want to. It's because they have been purposefully misled and misinformed. We start talking about misinformation and disinformation in the Trump era, but if you want to talk about disinformation, talk about how we teach children about Thanksgiving; how we teach children about the founding of this country; what they learned about Columbus. Pretty much adulthood is about unlearning all of the things that you learned from K through 12 education that you begin to start questioning when you enter into higher education. And so I think that a lot is wrong about democracy, which is also the fact that all you have to do is vote, right, and then you just allow your representatives to do what it is that they do and that you don't have to remain vigilant, that you don't have to remain informed, and you're just assuming that somebody else is going to have your best interests at heart when in fact, as you begin to turn your eyes away. Right. They begin to look in the direction of their donors. They begin to look inside of their pockets and see how that is being filled. And all of a sudden that's who they become beholden to. So I think that people don't understand the power of democracy and the fact that it
doesn't just exist. Right? It isn't just like our breath, right, that keeps cycling through our body without us actually having to think about it. It is conscious. It is something that is living that we have to pay attention to and be vigilant. And I think that the idea of us hanging on by a thread right now is waking up a lot of people to that fact.
Wajahat Ali: [00:19:12] I always tell people that it's normal to feel exhausted and it's normal to tap out because there's so many problems and challenges in your daily life. Now you add to that climate change, inflation, the death of democracy, disinformation. Oh yeah, a freaking pandemic, the flu, monkeypox, cost of living, and the death of democracy. And most people, what they tell me is "I'm a nobody. Like, who am I? I don't have the New York Times or Daily Beast like you. I don't have a podcast. What can I do? I'm just trying to survive." And I always tell people I love nobodies. Some of my favorite people are nobody. In fact, I'm a nobody. What everyone has, though, is something that they can do. I call it a superpower, right? Because I read comic books and people say, I have no superpower. I'm like, If you're a parent or a guardian, the way you model your behavior and your rhetoric in your home will influence future generations, your children. You can run for the school board, which is ground zero for the culture war all across the country right now. Right. What they've shown is that when we show up at the school boards, the majority, we win. We push back against the CRT nonsense. Right. The right wing, they're - have a very mobilized and organized and well-funded incestuous organization. And I always tell people that give me a small, zealous group that wakes up every day with a mission over a large flabby majority because they'll cut through us like we're butter. But when we show up, the average Joses and Joes and the Moms and the Pops who allegedly are nobodies, we win. The first step, though, is you have to become aware. You have to make the choice. Am I choosing to be aware or am I choosing to be ignorant? If you're aware of what's happening in your local community now, in your local schools, in your workplace, then that's when you make the intentional action to do something. And you know, like Danielle, I'm a writer and I invest a lot in students and education because I believe that type of apathy, that lack of awareness, the lack of historical trends and connections, it's almost like deliberate, like we create these automats, these future workers. Your job is to create profit for rich people who don't care about you. And then they'll suck you dry and then you'll be discarded. So, work two jobs just to stay broke. And by the way, don't worry about like, health care. Don't worry about infrastructure. The rich folks have got it. We'll tell you who to vote for. But then when you see an informed, aware population that
says, "Oh, wait, I have the vote," millions come out and say I want abortion rights. Millions come out and say defense of democracy is important to me. Millions come out despite all the disinformation and the dark money. And historically, the only question, Mila, we should have been asking after this latest midterm was the following "How big will the red wave be?" Obama lost 60 seats. Clinton lost 50. Trump lost 40. With the climate that we're in, historically, this should have been a wipeout. Instead, Democrats control the Senate and Republicans barely -- and I have to mention this, thanks to gerrymandering, which people don't know about, because, as Danielle was saying, we don't learn about civics or politics -- they barely won. And so what Danielle and I try to do and I think what we really believe in is that if you give voice to the voiceless, if you say these things out loud, what's so powerful is people sit there in their small little bubbles in their homes, they go, "I'm not alone. There's someone else who thinks like this. I'm not crazy." And if there's other moms and dads like this, nobody's... Well, maybe we're in the majority and maybe we have the strength to fight and maybe we should actually go to the school board and not be intimidated by these frigging ruffians who are threatening us. Oh, we have the numbers. F you. And that's how locally you've seen all across the nation, we've won in the school boards when we get together and build this multicultural coalition of the willing and people listening, don't underestimate the strength and power of your voice, of your footprint, and also of building this coalition. And I always remind people we have the numbers. The one thing that we have a big thing -- advantage -- is we have the numbers. We have the majority.
Mila Atmos: [00:23:18] We're taking a break to share about a show that I think you'll enjoy. It's called Best of the Left. It curates news and opinion and also activism so listeners can turn information into effective advocacy. Jay Tomlinson has been producing the show since its inception and uses his years of experience to shape each episode in ways that dive deeper and bring out more details on a topic than is usually possible from a single source. With a deep catalogue of episodes, Best of the Left has effectively created an archive of the progressive movement over the past decade and a half. A recent episode covered the labor movement in the US and shared several conversations about railroad workers, Amazon and Starbucks organizing, and also European strikes against inflation. Really informative, but if you only have time for one episode, make it their milestone 100th show when Jay lays out many of the smartest ideas he's had or come across in all his years of thinking deeply about politics. It's
definitely worth your time. Follow Best of the Left anywhere you get your podcasts. And now let's return to my conversation with Danielle and Waj.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:29] So, Danielle, the focus of your show is really about fighting for multiracial democracy. That's really what we're talking about here today. So what does that really look like? What is the next step for people to engage in, now that the election is over? What should we be thinking about?
Danielle Moodie: [00:24:43] The funny thing is, is that the election is never over. Like, that's, that's the, that's the thing that is also equally exhausting is that, you know, we are already in the 2024 presidential cycle. But I will tell you, what does it look like? It looks like standing up to the Republican Party, to white nationalism. Whether or not you're in their crosshairs right now, know that you will be in their crosshairs at some point. So for those that are sitting silently by and they're saying to themselves, "well, I'm not trans, I'm not queer, I'm not Black, I'm not Asian, I'm not, you know, this, that and the other thing." And they're saying, well, it's not me. I think about Martin Niemöller's poem back as the Nazis were taking over Europe, which was "First They Came" for, right. And so Republicans are telling you out loud what it is that they are doing. So what does it look like to join in coalition to truly link arms in the way that we saw people do for a very short period of time after the murder of George Floyd, where we saw that the protests that erupted from that horrific event were not just Black people that were in the streets by themselves saying that Black Lives Matter, but that everyone was in the streets saying those same things. And so what a multiracial coalition looks like, it looks like my struggle is your struggle and your struggle is my struggle. And that regardless of how I may appear, what we care about fundamentally is justice and equity for all people, and that all people have access to their idea of what the American dream is supposed to be and that we all have a collective responsibility with each generation to perfect this very imperfect union. That is the responsibility that it means to be citizens of these United States. And so the reason why we are seeing the type of white-lash that we are experiencing right now is because of the coalition that people recognize and saw in the Obama years. It was like, wait a minute, right? Like, yes, we can do this right. We have done it once before. And so I don't want people to get dismayed and to get disgruntled and to marinate in the misery and the madness that Republicans are trying to, you know, rain down on the American population. I want us to recognize that we have been through darker times before and we always, always rise above. And so I think that it
looks like linking arms, it looks like being a voice. It looks like recognizing that you have a platform and that you have a responsibility and that we may not see the type of equity that we're fighting for, for ourselves. But the point is to continue fighting, for one day.
Mila Atmos: [00:27:46] Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure.
Wajahat Ali: [00:27:47] This country loves Martin Luther King for three quotes and three quotes only, and then forgets everything else. One of the quotes that I really like about him is the "arc of the moral universe bends toward justice," but you have to bend it towards justice. And I say this because for people who are listening, you know, what should they do? First of all, they have to be aware of the threat that we're facing. Words matter. I believe we are dealing with a radicalized, weaponized right wing movement that wants power by any means necessary. I use the word fascist because I'm a student of history, and the experts and academics who've studied fascism, some of the most sober people have stepped up for the past five years and warned us. If you study fascism, as Danielle is saying is at first, yeah, they're friendly with the rich and the powerful and the institutions and they get the access, but then they come for everyone, including other fascists, by the way, because at the end of the day, there can be only one. And so they will not sleep. They will be relentless. And so we have to name it. Another analogy, always give us like a Bond movie where James Bond spends 2 hours going around the world, spending $200 million of a budget trying to find like the super villain and towards the end the super villain monologues and tells them the dastardly plan. This is like the first 10 minutes. This is before the naked Golden Girls are dancing. They're literally just telling you. They're like, "Hey, hey, hey, Do you want to know our our dastardly plan?" We're like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." "Let's talk about Hunter Biden's laptop and like, no, no. We want to tell you, can we just tell you here's a slide show. Let us tell you exactly how we plan to implement fascism." We're like, "wait, what?" "Look at these woke liberals. Aren't they so crazy? Look at these woke Black kids and look at this. Look, there's a transgender. A transgender. See one of those transgenders! Isn't this wild?" And so that's how the majority is being gaslit. But the right wing is telling you we want a Christian nationalist state where women don't have rights, where gays and lesbians, you know, we get to beat them up, where Muslims get banned and deported, where Black people need to know their place. And we like the good immigrants, but not those who come from the shithole countries. How will a multiracial democracy that is the United States of America survive such a fascist vision?
It won't. It won't. So when they're telling you what they plan to do, you have to be aware and you have to confront it every step of the way, every day. That's the only way you defeat fascism.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:07] So I'm wondering about progress here because, you know, things are definitely better today in many ways than they were 50 years ago, a hundred years ago. Right. For people of color like us in this country and in other ways, of course, it's worse, right? Like you said, we, the rights of women have just been taken away to make their own health care decisions as they need to. So what you talked about, MLK's arc of the moral universe bending toward justice. And right now we seem to be, as I said, sort of like on a seesaw roller coaster of progress and backlash. Which way are we teetering right now? I feel like the show and life in general these days is so much about trying to calibrate between celebrating our wins, which is also what you mentioned, and raising the alarm.
Wajahat Ali: [00:30:53] Well, Danielle did say something a couple of minutes ago about the reason why white rage is so bellicose and violent right now is because of the success of this multiracial democracy, where if you just look at this podcast, you know, a daughter of Jamaican immigrants, Danielle, a daughter of Pakistani immigrants, me, an Indonesian woman who is the host of an American podcast in Defense of Democracy. Now, you might sit there and go like, "Oh, that's no big deal." I'm 42 years old. Trust me. What I had growing up was Apu, a 2D cartoon voiced by a white man. And we were so starving for representation, we loved Apu. That's all we had. So now we actually have living, breathing brown and Black folks who are elevated leaders in politics and culture, in media, in society, people who are being elected. And then the mainstream, which has always been code word for white, is like, Oh yeah, you too are an American. You too are a leader, right? Whatever you think about Kamala Harris, the fact that a Black and brown woman is the vice president of the United States of America, and an elderly white man who had problematic politics in the past that he's addressing, is standing up with her and saying, this is my running mate, this is my equal. The fact that Barack Obama, whom still a part of this country, thinks as a Muslim. He's not. But if he is, thank you for voting for my Muslim brother. But the fact that he won two elections and his vice president was Joe Biden, an elderly white man who stood by his side. Right. That's powerful and that's progress also. So we have to take the wins and acknowledge the wins. And those wins are a result of, pardon my
language, the shit that our parents had to go through to get to this point. And but we're not there yet. We're not at the mountaintop. We're not at the bottom. We're not at the mountaintop. And what I've said and it took a while for people to come around to this, but I said this in 2017. I said, "we're witnessing globally the death rattle of white supremacy that has turned into a death march. They realize they're losing. They realize the numbers are against them." So instead of saying, you know what, let's evolve and adapt, whiteness always evolves and adapts to control and maintain power. We'll peel off some Latinos, we'll get some Asians, we'll get a few Blacks. Defense of democracy? F democracy! You know, we'll go for fascism. Any means necessary to maintain power. That's what we'll do. So we're dealing with this radicalized, weaponized movement because they're realizing they're losing and the majority has to confront that. And the fact that we are succeeding and the fact that you're seeing their temper tantrum, that's a sign that there has been progress. But I'm telling you, they will not relent. They will not relent until they have all the marbles. For them, it's a zero sum game. And so we have to match that intensity and that passion. And again, to end on a hopeful note, we have the numbers.
Mila Atmos: [00:33:38] Yeah, I totally agree. Well, let's talk about the immigrant experience in American democracy. Since you just talked about this. You're both the children of immigrants and I am myself an immigrant, but I don't necessarily center it on the show here or in my life. In fact, I occupy a lot of white spaces, and I think my coping mechanism was to blend in as far as I humanly could, you know, which is not that far, kind of like the melting pot theory, but that has become much less personally comfortable. I think like 30 years ago that was much easier. And today, like I said, it's less comfortable, but also it's less desirable, I think, as a society. So when I read your book, I really identified with some of your parents' attitudes towards assimilation. Do you think that's an age thing or a generational thing or, you know, between let's say your generation. You were born here and I was not. I'm a naturalized American. So what do you think?
Wajahat Ali: [00:34:33] It's about protection. So post 1965 of the Immigration Nationality Act, when many of our parents came here. I always joke they landed here as brown and Black folks, and they're like, Hmm, who's crushing it in America? Who's on the billboards? Who's elected? Who's winning? Who lives in the gated communities? Who does everyone like? White people. Hmm. Who's in jail? Who gets mocked and
ridiculed? Who has no power? Black and brown people. I'm not white, but let me run towards whiteness. I'll be protected by it. Maybe I can be embraced in its warm, everlasting glow. And this was almost an unconscious decision to run towards whiteness. Now, while that happened, my parents in particular gave zero Fs about integration. They named me Wajahat. I didn't learn English until I was like six. Very Muslimy and very, very brown. But it's the model minority poison, the toxicity, the myth which is used as a divide and conquer technique by whiteness. You are the good minority, the good Asian, the good Black, the good brown, the good South Asian. Why can't the rest of them be like you? You don't rock the boat. You row the boat. You smile with your white teeth, smiling. Some of us said, Yeah, we are the good minority. We made it. Look at these poor refugees and these poor browns and these poor blacks. Just pull yourself up from the bootstraps, Darkie, and you can be like us. And then 9/11 happened. And when 9/11 happened, for my parents' generation, they learned the hard way that your Americanness as a person of color is always conditional. And this country turned on them on a dime. And no matter how much money they made or how good their credit was or their education, or they paid their taxes. You were the other. You were the enemy. And kind of overnight they're like, Oh, we're closer to -- wait for it -- Blackness. And then Trump comes along, and Trump openly says, "You come from shithole countries." And he's like, "Until we figure out what's happening with the Muslims, we're going to ban them." It's blunt. And I think what happened with Trumpism and this is the one compliment I'll give Trump. Stay with me for a second. Just wait for it. He was so blunt with his hate and racism. It was so egregious. It was so in-your-face that those who took our warnings for granted could no longer ignore it. They're like, "Wow, they really do hate us." And you saw a shift. And I'll give one mainstream example, Fareed Zakaria, of all people. I think Mila, he kind of was your model. He said it. Integrated, assimilated, you know, was kind of Muslimy but never led with it. And Trumpism, he wrote an essay for Washington Post and the attack on Muslims, said made me identify and own my Muslim identity. And damn it, I'm a Desi, I'm a Muslim, I'm a son of immigrants. And that melting pot model, I realize, didn't work. The integrated model works with this mosaic of America. And if you're going to attack me, well, no. Even though I'm not practicing, I'm a Muslim and I know other Muslims. And why can't we be Muslim and American? And so in a strange way, the overt white nationalism and racism and xenophobia has activated that part of our identity that many of us bury, due to shame and self-loathing, and instead has inspired a pride, which I feel
is the model moving forward. And I believe and I don't want to talk for Danielle, but is a type of pride that Danielle and I both have in our multi hyphenated American identity.
Mila Atmos: [00:37:59] Hmm. Well said. Well, I think that is for sure true. I mean, of course, I remember after September 11th, my brother was one of those men who stood in line in the dead of winter to report himself as a Muslim man of a certain age, between 18 and I think, 18 and 35 was the age
Wajahat Ali: [00:38:16] For NSEERS. Mila Atmos: [00:38:17] And yes, yes. Wajahat Ali: [00:38:18] The first registry.
Mila Atmos: [00:38:19] Like all of those people, all of the people volunteered to self- identify themselves, you know, to be like, "yes, I'm Muslim and I'm male. And every time I reenter this country, I volunteer essentially to be pulled aside at customs and be interrogated essentially every single time." And in fact, one time when my brother was pulled aside, coming back into the U.S., he said, why am I always being pulled aside? And the officer said, Well, it's because of your name and your looks and your religion and all of those things. And he was just point blank about it. You know, you're basically being profiled because your name and and you know where you were born. And I thought it was actually so honest. I was kind of shocked that he just came out and said it. I was like "he said to you? What?"
Wajahat Ali: [00:39:09] Mila, can I just say for a second? Because people forget this aspect of U.S. history. That was the first Muslim registry it was called NSEERS and 13,000 innocent immigrants, overwhelmingly from Muslim majority countries and North Korea, were deported. And that happened in the Bush administration.
Mila Atmos: [00:39:25] Yes. Yes, correct. My brother, thankfully, was not deported. But I wanted to ask you, Danielle, about two things everyday citizens can do for bolstering, advancing multiracial democracy.
Danielle Moodie: [00:39:40] Well, I will say that the first thing that you can do is register to vote. And if you are registered to vote, make sure that everybody in your family, everybody that you work with, everybody that you come around is registered to vote, because that is really important. And particularly if you're living in red states where they readily purge the voting rolls, make sure that even if you did register to vote that you are still eligible to actually vote before there is an election coming due. The second thing that I will say to you is think outside of yourself, right? I think that there is a level of selfishness and greed in this country that it almost harkens back to the eighties and the and the Gordon Gekkos of the world. Greed is good, right? As long as I have mine, I don't care who doesn't. And we need to start thinking that it isn't just about pulling myself up from my bootstraps. It isn't just about me being able to put food on my table. It is about the collective. And that is the problem with white supremacy culture, if you can call it a culture in and of itself. It is very individualistic, right? It is all about me, me, me. It is not about us. It is not about the we. And they break down every single type of community so that there is no collective power that is there. They decimate the Black community. They decimated Indigenous communities. And so I think that it's really important for people to recognize the power in the collective and the power in community and wherever you can really embed yourself in your community. And so if you're inclined to run for office or be a campaign manager or volunteer to do so because like I said, there are more of us than there are of them, there are power in our numbers. We just need to look for one another and hold one another and create space for one another.
Wajahat Ali: [00:41:43] Mila, Can I say this because we have to be blunt about it. What's happening right now is they're Trojan horsing their fascist agenda by attacking transgender kids and many folks who should know better are so terrified and so ignorant about transgender kids and so worried that their kids will become indoctrinated and mutilated. These are the words that they use very deliberately, that they are going along with the agenda. And they did this with Muslims, post war on terror. They've done this against Black folks. And if you've been paying attention now, the number one conspiracy theory of Republicans, which a majority of Republicans believe and is now espoused by their own elected leaders, including the number three leader, Elise Stefanik, is the replacement theory. It's not a theory. It's a lie. It has emerged from the swamps of white supremacists. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm not just saying that casually. I'm talking about Nazis and KKK. They believe that Jews, the Jews, are the head of the
international cabal using Black people, brown people, immigrants, women and gays to replace and weaken Western civilization. And that means everybody who doesn't agree with them and the whites and the white conservatives who don't agree with them are also complicit and they're race traitors. So if your group was mentioned in what I just said, you are seen as the enemy. They're coming after you. But the way they're hiding it right now is by saying, "no, no, no, we're going after CRT and the groomers. Ew, look, the transgender kids!" And I've seen so many otherwise smart, worldly Democratic voters in the suburbs say, "oh, my God, they're going to make my child into transgender. Let me vote for Glenn Youngkin and the Republicans." And then there's the rope a dope. And they're like, "Oops, my bad." So don't fall for the divide and conquer technique.
Mila Atmos: [00:43:25] That's right. Well, thank you for reminding us to be vigilant. So here's my final question for both of you. Looking into the future, what makes you hopeful? I mean, you wouldn't be doing this work if you were not hopeful.
Wajahat Ali: [00:43:40] Give them the mustard seed, Danielle. Take it out. Brush it off.
Danielle Moodie: [00:43:44] So the joke on democracy ish is that I am "ye of little hope," right? I say that I carry around a mustard seed of hope that I am hoping someday I can plant and that will turn into a luscious garden. But the reality is, is that Mila, you're right. We would not be doing this work if we were not hopeful, right? We would not waste our time screaming into the void if we did not think that the message would land somewhere, that someone, somewhere would open up their eyes and say, "Oh my God, I can't believe this is happening and I need to do something about it." And so what keeps me hopeful is knowing that every day there is somebody that is waking up to the reality that they need to fight for this country, that they have the power to fight for this country. They have the voice to fight for this country. And so I believe in the truth that there is more of us than there are them. I believe that they are smoke and mirrors at best, that they are a bunch of very frightened, fragile people that are holding on to their AR 15 because it's the only sense of power that they have. We know better, We do better. And when we show up, we can be better, collectively. And so that's what gives me hope is the fact that these messages that we are recording will land and land on listening ears and that people will take these messages to heart and they will say, "I can do something, right, and now is the time."
Mila Atmos: [00:45:20] Well said. How about you Waj?
Wajahat Ali: [00:45:21] I got kids. I got three kids, and I'll be damned if I tell them that their only inheritance will be that they will be righteous victims and their job is just to smile and with their white teeth smiling and just, you know, row the boat. And they should be happy with the appetizers and they should be happy being a sidekick. My kids, you know, will one day ask me, what did you do, Baba? Did you do something? Did you do anything? And I'm like, No, no, no. It was too uncomfortable. So I just sat back and did nothing. You know, at the very least, I have to do something. And planting the seed, as Danielle said. But there is a beautiful thing within religious traditions, within mostly all religious traditions, but specifically Islam, where the Prophet Muhammad said, even if you see the day of judgment coming around the corner, plant a seed, and it says that even in the face of utter hopelessness, do your part. Plant the seed. You know, we have limited energy, we have limited talents. We're just one person. But the one thing I can control is my intentions and my actions with the time that I have. And so if I do something, at least for my kids and that generation, not just my kids. They deserve better than this. And I want them, Insha'Allah, to see me as some type of model and be like, you know, at least Baba fought. And if he fought, he made things better, then I will fight too. The goal is to create a type of citizenry in America where those who have made it, they're not content. They look over their shoulder and they see who's getting stomped on. They reach out and help them and bring them to the table. We have to expand the tent. You don't have to agree with everyone in the tent. That's impossible. You don't agree with everyone in your family. But then there are forces of white nationalism who have always gone for constriction. And I know for a fact with the United States of America, a country of 330 million people of so many different ethnicities, races and religions, literally an experiment in real time. The way we survive is if you expand the tent and everyone gets to be a co-protagonist, a hero of the story. And so if I can model that type of narrative and that type of behavior and plant those seeds, then insh'Allah, at the very least, if Danielle and me and you, we're not alive to experience the shade and eat the fruit, our kids can. And that's a win.
Mila Atmos: [00:47:30] That's right. Hear, hear. Hear, hear. From your lips to God's ears. So, thank you very much for joining us on Future Hindsight. It was really a pleasure to have you on.
Danielle Moodie: [00:47:40] Thank you so much for having us. This was wonderful.
Wajahat Ali: [00:47:44] And Mila, you said like you're we're your cousin. We're like your garage band start up cousin. You know, we're like grungy, but we mean well. You're like the polished aunt who comes and goes, Oh, good job. Well, well done. That's, that was nice.
Mila Atmos: [00:47:58] Oh, no, no, no. You guys are totally polished. What are you talking about? You guys are awesome. Thank you.
Wajahat Ali: [00:48:03] Thank you so much.
Mila Atmos: [00:48:04] Danielle Moodie and Wajahat Ali are the hosts of Democracy-
ish.
Next week on Future Hindsight, we'll be joined by Victor Shi. He's a junior at UCLA, a Gen Z activist, host of On the Move, co-host of I Gen Politics, and Strategy Director of Voters of Tomorrow. He's going to give us a rundown on the successful youth voter organizing that delivered in the midterms and where we go from here.
Victor Shi: [00:48:34] When we think of meeting young people where they are, it's not the traditional model anymore where you can go to coffee shops or churches or in- person settings. Young people are the most digitally connected generation in America. More than 99% of us have at least one social media platform. And so that's the way that you're able to bring more Gen Zers into the table. And so that was another critical aspect of us making sure that we provide resources on Instagram and Twitter and other platforms so that young people will see it.
Mila Atmos: [00:49:02] That's next time on Future Hindsight.
And before I go, first of all, thanks for listening. You must really like the show If you're still here, we have an ask a few. Could you rate us or leave a review on Apple Podcasts? It seems like a small thing, but it can make a huge difference for an
independent show like ours. It's the main way other people can find out about the show. We really appreciate your help. Thank you.
This episode was produced by Zack Travis and Sara Burningham. Until next time, stay engaged.
The Democracy Group: [00:49:43] This podcast is part of the democracy group.