Protect Whistleblowers: Joe Spielberger
August 22nd, 2024
”Stop funding anything related to the military in Central America.”
Joe Spielberger is the policy counsel for the Effective and Accountable Government team at the Project on Government Oversight (POGO), where he advocates in Congress and the executive branch to strengthen whistleblower rights, protect a merit-based civil service, and promote government ethics and transparency. We discuss how government can be transparent and accountable to us, the People.
All Americans need to be confident that federal employees are hired based on their qualifications and not because of their partisan political ideology. In retaliation to the whistleblower on Trump’s phone call with Ukrainian president Zelensky, Trump signed Schedule F, an executive order that could have allowed a complete purge of the civil service of nonpartisan career civil servants. Because whistleblower retaliation is rampant, protecting whistleblowers and civil servants is one of the best ways to protect the public from harm. The Supreme Court does not have a binding code of ethics because the Supreme Court refuses to adopt one. However, Congress has clear and direct mechanisms to hold the Supreme Court accountable and can pass legislation that would implement a binding code of ethics.
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Joe Spielberger
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producer: Zack Travis
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Joe Spielberger Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:04] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos.
It's 2024 and the future of America is in your hands. Democracy is not a spectator sport, so we're here to bring you an independent perspective about the election this year and empower you to challenge the status quo.
The legitimacy of democracy depends on government to deliver for the common good, and part of delivering means being accountable and transparent. Many Americans have lost faith in government and by extension, in democracy, partly because government and government actors are perceived to be corrupt and above the law. In an election year, we have the opportunity to hold our elected officials accountable at the ballot box. But there's also corruption, abuse of power, and inequities in federal government policies, programs and projects, which we all know can be incredibly opaque. And it's harder to demand responsibility.
To unpack how government can be transparent and accountable to us, the people, we're joined by Joe Spielberger of the Project on Government Oversight, or POGO. He's the policy counsel for the Effective and Accountable government team, where he advocates in Congress and the executive branch to strengthen whistleblower rights, protect a merit based civil service, and promote government ethics and transparency. Welcome, Joe. Thank you for joining us.
Joe Spielberger: [00:01:49] Thank you so much for having me.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:54] So I think most Americans understand that the federal government should be free from corruption, fraud, abuse of power. But I think most of us don't know where and how it's happening. Just to get us familiar with the lay of the land, what's the most common form of wrongdoing and how bad is it?
Joe Spielberger: [00:02:14] So we see at POGO... You know, we are a prominent government watchdog organization, and we have our hands in basically any issue
having to do with federal corruption, abuse of power, waste and fraud and other illegal behavior. And so it's really kind of where do you begin? A huge issue that's been a policy priority for POGO was protecting whistleblowers. We've done this work for decades. We know that whistleblowers play such a crucial role. We call them the eyes and ears of the American taxpayer, because they are really on the front lines in that first line of defense at rooting out federal corruption before it can really fester. And unfortunately, they have to take huge risks in stepping forward and speaking out. They really have the deck stacked completely against them. Whistleblower retaliation is rampant. It doesn't matter if it's a Democratic or a Republican administration. It happens across all agencies and it happens in overt and more covert ways. Anything from increased harassment to creating a hostile work environment to being terminated, even subjected to civil or criminal charges, and not to mention the ongoing emotional and psychological impact that that has on people.
Mila Atmos: [00:03:44] Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that, because I know, of course, as I mentioned in the intro and as you're saying here, one of your issues is to strengthen whistleblower rights. And I think most people will agree we should be protecting whistleblowers, but it's a little bit unfair for us to depend on people who are these private heroes who are going to rat out the people who surround them. And I just kind of feel like we're asking a lot of one person or multiple individuals, I should say. You know, they're not a government watchdog like you. So recently there has been a lot of news about whistleblowers at Boeing, which granted, is of course a public company. But because it's in the news, I think people are thinking about it. So what are the whistleblower rights right now and how should they be improved?
Joe Spielberger: [00:04:31] So one of the challenges about whistleblower rights is that the way that the laws are structured, it's really a piecemeal approach. So they can look pretty different depending on whether you're talking about the private versus the public sector, whether you're talking about different agencies throughout the federal government. There are different protections for, for instance, whistleblowers in the military or the intelligence community. And that's one of the challenges, is because we know that there are just basic fundamental reforms that we need to enact into law, but there are so many loopholes. And so we're so often just playing defense and trying to close these little loopholes to provide a little bit more parity and accountability before we can even begin to address the larger issues. But one of the biggest issues for us, that
POGO and a lot of the other advocates who we work closely with, is the right to take a whistleblower claim directly to court. For instance, most federal employees can bring whistleblower retaliation cases to the Office of Special Counsel and the Merit Systems Protection Board. Some of the issues that we see with those entities are one, the sheer numbers of caseloads and the backlog of cases that they have to get through. And so if you bring a claim, it can take months or years or even longer for any resolution. And when we look at the results, we see that whistleblowers only prevail on the merits of their cases at very, very low rates, about 2 to 5% at the most, based on the most recent data I've seen. And a big part of that is that, you know, even though these are ostensibly independent entities, you're still appealing to the federal government. And the federal government oftentimes acts as a rubber stamp for agency decisions. And so allowing whistleblowers to bring cases directly to federal court would bypass a lot of those issues, provide more fairness in the process and get them a better chance to prevail and to have some sort of justice in their cases.
Mila Atmos: [00:07:02] Mhm. Mhm. Well let's talk about the cases. What are they whistleblowing on. Tell us about a real life case. That kind of makes it real for the listeners. So they know what we're really talking about here.
Joe Spielberger: [00:07:16] So that's a really good segue into this big issue that we've been focused on, which is schedule F. You know, that has a direct relationship towards whistleblowing. And in fact, many or most of your listeners are probably familiar with the whistleblower who exposed the phone call between former President Trump and the president of Ukraine, which led to the first impeachment. And that was actually an impetus for the Trump administration to sign off on this new executive order, schedule F, because he was frustrated that whistleblowers and civil servants were speaking out and in his eyes, you know, standing in the way because they wanted to just remain silent and allow this type of illegality and corruption to continue without a response. So we saw that whistleblower. There were instances, especially during the Covid-19 pandemic, people trying to speak out about all of these health risks at a time when the administration was very much politicizing this historic pandemic. We've worked with whistleblowers who have exposed medical malpractice at VA hospitals across the country. Whistleblowers at the Social Security Administration, throughout the military and the intelligence community, and really people who are exposing a lot of issues that,
at the end of the day, do have a direct impact on the public and on communities and their health and safety and well-being.
Mila Atmos: [00:09:03] Well relatedly, you are also working on protecting merit based civil service. And does that just mean that cronies don't get jobs, or what does it mean exactly? And, you know, you mentioned the Zelensky call and the Covid era problems. What's at stake in terms of if Trump were to get reelected, since we know that he has big plans to gut civil service, right.
Joe Spielberger: [00:09:29] This is such a huge focus of POGO right now, which is protecting the merit based civil service and preventing the reimplementation of the schedule F. So just to take a brief step back..
Mila Atmos: [00:09:43] Can you tell us exactly what schedule F is?
Joe Spielberger: [00:09:44] Yes, absolutely. So schedule F refers to this executive order, again, that former President Trump signed toward the very end of his administration. It created a new category of federal worker, Schedule F, which would have existed outside of the typical rights and protections that most federal employees receive. And again, the big reason behind this policy is because he wanted an obedient civil service that would not speak out when they witnessed corruption and abuse of power in the administration. So what this new policy would have done in practice is it would have allowed agencies to recategorize their employees and unilaterally transfer them into this new category with fewer protections to make it easier for a president or a political appointee to fire them. At the time, it was estimated that the number of employees who would have been impacted would be in the tens of thousands, up to 50,000, or even 100,000 or more. And just to put that number into a little bit more context, on average, between administrations, there are approximately 4,000 political appointees across the civil service. And so just thinking about those numbers, at the very least, that would have expanded the politicization of the civil service exponentially. But even more important than just talking about the sheer numbers, this would have been a tool that would have allowed an administration to gut key agencies or departments. So, for instance, one of the agencies that completed its analysis was the Office of Management and Budget, which is a super wonky agency, but it has this very critical role in administering the federal budget and overseeing the performance of
federal agencies. And they would have reclassified and transferred a whole 88% of its workforce into this new category. And one reason why they were one of the first agencies to complete their analysis is because people in the Trump administration wanted them to act as an example for other agencies to follow. And so we can see where, if other agencies did follow their lead, schedule F could have realistically become this tool that would have allowed a president or an administration to completely purge the civil service of nonpartisan career civil servants who were in these positions because of their qualifications, and packed the federal government with people who are more loyal to a president's political agenda rather than the rule of law, the Constitution, or serving the public faithfully.
Mila Atmos: [00:12:58] So what is POGO's response to this? Like, what are you guys doing?
Joe Spielberger: [00:13:03] So we have been involved in a lot of different efforts from the very beginning. When this executive order was signed, we investigated and published different investigative pieces and reports about this whole effort. We've been involved in legislative advocacy. There's been legislation in the House and Senate over the past couple of years, sponsored by Representative Gerry Connolly and Senator Tim Kaine. We've advocated in the executive branch. So the Biden administration recently released a new rule that would strengthen protections for civil servants, and we also work closely with other advocates, good governance organizations, the general public, members of the media. And what we are really focused on right now is bringing this case directly to the people, so that people understand really what is at stake and why, what sounds like an issue that might only be of concern to government bureaucrats themselves, or folks like us who work in this very wonky space, you know, why this impacts them and their families and communities on a day to day basis.
Mila Atmos: [00:14:25] You know, I think it's very difficult to connect the dots between the people who are working in civil service and how it affects us, and in turn, how this translates to democracy. Help us understand why not protecting whistleblowers, having something like schedule F or wasting taxpayers money and, you know, having corruption, basically. How does corruption undermine democracy?
Joe Spielberger: [00:14:56] Sure. So specifically in this context around schedule F, we know that federal employees are essential to providing really important services and benefits that most of us rely on and many of us take for granted. So, of course, federal employees live and work in states across the country and perform such critical work, like providing disaster relief and protecting our environment, preparing for pandemics, and conducting public health research and enforcing our laws. You know, building bridges and roads and other infrastructure projects; you know, adjudicating and providing Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid benefits. Veterans benefits. And so there's a reason why we have a merit based civil service, because we need to know that people who are in these critical positions are in those positions because they've been hired based on their qualifications, because they believe in the mission of the agency and what the agency does, and not because of their partisan political ideology. At the end of the day, everyone needs to be able to trust that the federal government is working on their behalf. So if you are living in a coastal community or a community that's at risk for a natural disaster, you need to know that in case of an emergency, that federal aid will arrive on time and effectively. You know, I mean, the list goes on. But because we rely on these career civil servants to perform such critical roles, it's absolutely vital to make sure that they are qualified and chosen based on merit rather than their political connections.
Mila Atmos: [00:16:53] We talk about this already that, you know, we're relying on people on the inside to report if something is going wrong. But what if that doesn't happen? How can we, as laypeople, understand what's happening on the inside? And how are you doing that at POGO to detect or uncover abuse of office, abuse of power, or corruption? Unless you have a whistleblower, maybe you can't do it, but I'm just curious.
Joe Spielberger: [00:17:21] It is definitely a challenge, and we do rely on many whistleblowers coming to us and sharing what they're experiencing. And, you know, we have a full research and investigations team who can do deeper dives into that. We hear things happening from members of Congress. You know, we hear things happening from the media, from the public. And so there are a lot of ways to try to get at this level of corruption. It depends on the agency and different personal relationships. But, you know, we are committed to making sure that if we don't have the tools at our
disposal, that we're able to partner with the right people and get the information that we need to make these reforms.
Mila Atmos: [00:18:12] So let's talk about the reforms, like what is foolproof anti- corruption reform? Or what are the things that you think, oh, you know, if only we had this, what would that be?
Joe Spielberger: [00:18:25] There's really a long list. Again, I go back to the fundamental need to strengthen whistleblower protections. And that does sound like a very defensive posture, but protecting whistleblowers and protecting civil servants is one of the best ways that we can protect the public from harm. There are a lot of different areas that POGO focuses on. One other critical area is Supreme Court ethics. So I'm sure that a lot of your listeners have been following news about Clarence Thomas and other justices accepting gifts and favors from rich benefactors. And what may be a lot of people are not aware of is that the Supreme Court does not have a binding code of ethics. Every other federal judge across the country is bound by certain ethical standards, but the Supreme Court refuses to adopt its own. And because of that, we're supposed to trust that nothing is happening and that they're making these crucial decisions fairly without any political influence. One other issue that I wanted to just briefly highlight, because it is literally a matter of life and death is what's called the Death in Custody Reporting Act, which sounds very simple, and in a lot of ways it is. But the problem is that the federal government does not know and cannot account for the number of people who die in police custody and who die in jails and prisons across the country. They are statutorily required to collect this data. There's been a law on the books for years and years, and they are simply unable or unwilling to do it. And so I mentioned that again, because it sounds like it should be this simple, fundamental thing that the Department of Justice should just naturally do because it is a matter of life and death. You know, and I've got colleagues who have worked on this issue for years. It takes that long just to get some measure of accountability on something that seems so important to the government and to the American people. I mean, it comes as no surprise to you or your listeners the slow pace of how the federal government works. And so we are constantly beating our heads against the wall in a lot of ways, because it does take so long just to get these simple, fundamental and necessary changes that we need to get done.
Mila Atmos: [00:21:06] Mhm. Yeah. You have to have a lot of patience in your job. We're taking a short break and we'll be back with Joe in just a moment. But first I want
to share about a really great podcast called This Day in Esoteric History.
This Day in Esoteric Political History: [00:21:26] Do you know about these stories? In 1933, Huey Long invented a holiday to prevent a bank from collapsing. In 1960, years before he was assassinated, someone tried to kill JFK with a car bomb. And in 2014, remember this? There was a whole news cycle about President Obama's tan suit. On the podcast This Day in Esoteric Political History, we talk about the forgotten stories that may teach us a lot about the very strange moment we're living in right now. Check it out This Day in Esoteric Political History from Radiotopia.
Mila Atmos: [00:22:00] And now let's return to my conversation with Joe Spielberger.
So aside from whistleblowers, it's also really important for everyday people to get engaged and demand that their electeds pass anti-corruption measures. Or to your point, to make sure that they actually collect the data. We need to let our electeds know that this is important to us. You at POGO have a civic engagement program. Tell us more about how it works. How can people get involved? How can they advocate for transparency and accountability?
Joe Spielberger: [00:22:41] So one very simple way of getting involved is just going to our website pogo.org -- and we have an action center there. And it's really easy to just simply sign your name onto petitions that are going to members of Congress or the executive branch to advocate around the need to pass these fundamental reforms. We also, especially whenever there's an important vote coming up in Congress, we always advocate people to reach out to their members of Congress, and that is critically important. Sometimes it comes off as cliche, you know, if you have a problem, call your senator. But it is so important and does make a real difference when members of Congress hear directly from their constituents, especially when we're talking about going up against corporate interests and countering the effect of bad special interests who have a lot of time, have a lot of money, have a lot of capacity. It is an uphill battle, but there's really no replacing members of Congress hearing directly from their constituents, especially about some of these wonkier issues, that they might not be
expecting to really resonate with people. And so being able to say, "I live in your state, I live in your district, I know that this vote is coming up. This is why this is important issue for me, my family, my community." That can go a really long way because at the end of the day, members of Congress are politicians. They're motivated by self-preservation and getting reelected. And so it can be powerful to let them know that their voters are watching and are paying attention, and are keeping track of which side of the issue their members are coming down on. Especially that we're in this critical election year, we need to get people engaged and obviously getting out the vote and also talking to friends and family and community members. We know that people are much likelier to take action when they're hearing from people who they know and trust, and that's true for volunteering or donating to different causes and taking action in other ways. And so, especially when we're talking about issues like schedule F and approaching what could be a more authoritarian government, you know, that's why we are really trying to spread this message as far and wide as we can. Why these corruption issues matter and why they matter to people in their everyday lives.
Mila Atmos: [00:25:30] Tell us a little bit about some recent successes for POGO in advancing government transparency. You know, aside from schedule F, what's been really successful and what you're looking forward to?
Joe Spielberger: [00:25:41] Well, let me see if I can try to answer this question... (laughter)
Mila Atmos: [00:25:45] Well, when you tell people at a dinner party, what are you most proud of about your job?
Joe Spielberger: [00:25:51] What I'm most proud of in this job is really being able to play a small role on behalf of people who I consider to be legitimate heroes. And again, I'm talking about whistleblowers and people who have taken enormous risks to expose really serious issues of corruption throughout the federal government. You know, I mentioned exposing the politicization of the Covid-19 pandemic. POGO has worked closely in the past with people who were instrumental at exposing widespread medical abuse and misconduct in VA facilities across the country. People who have been instrumental in exposing all of the issues around sexual harassment in the military. And so being able to play a small role and advocate on behalf of people who I think are
really inspiring and people who give me a lot of hope, is the most rewarding part of doing this work.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:58] That's great. So aside from schedule F, what are you really pressing on before Election Day?
Joe Spielberger: [00:27:05] A big part of our work right now is really, again, looking towards the potential of having an authoritarian government. And of course, Schedule F is a big part of that. It's also not the only part. And so along with whistleblower protections, this is again somewhat of a wonkier issue, but we are also really focused on abuses of the security clearance process. So we've seen in the past how security clearances can be a tool of retaliation against whistleblowers. We also have worked in partnership with advocates in the AAPI civil rights community, including some former FBI whistleblowers who were targeted and subjected to increased harassment and suspicion based on their Chinese ethnic heritage. And so we've seen this being used as a tool against whistleblowers, against people especially from East Asia, China, specifically, people from South Asia, the Middle East, North Africa, etc. Certainly historically, this has impacted members of the LGBTQ plus community. And so it's really been this issue that has impacted so many different communities and is now really increasingly wrapped up in this march towards authoritarianism. When we talk about what a security clearance means to someone in the military or the intelligence community, that's their job, that's their career, that's their livelihood. And so it's one other tool that we are likely to see in a future authoritarian administration of going after and targeting people because of their race, because of their ethnicity, because they belong to the wrong political party or for any sort of discrimination or retaliation purpose. And so, to that end, we've been having lots of conversations on the Hill and in different executive branch agencies at this point, really just trying to educate members of Congress and their staff about this issue. Why it's important. This is an issue that's important to a lot of the organizations and people that POGO partners with, and especially in the limited time between now and the election, we're really just trying to see what, if anything, Congress and this administration can do to provide additional safeguards in place.
Mila Atmos: [00:29:48] Mhm. I want to go back to this comment you made about the ethics on the Supreme Court. And if we're thinking about promoting government ethics
and transparency, what do you think is the most effective reform or policy that we could be taking action in. Because obviously we cannot hold the Supreme Court accountable, but maybe other parts of government, maybe there it's easier.
Joe Spielberger: [00:30:11] You're right that we don't have clear and direct mechanisms for holding the Supreme Court accountable, but Congress certainly does. And so a big part of that is working with our members of Congress, especially on the Senate Judiciary Committee, who can issue subpoenas. They can pass legislation that would adhere to the Supreme Court to a binding code of ethics. And so, again, there are lots of different barriers along the way, but there are ways to effectively advocate and get the reforms that we need and really create the type of federal government that is ethical and is transparent and is accountable.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:58] So this might sound a little off the beaten path here from our conversation, but I'm curious, is there an example of a country or an agency where you're like, these people are doing it right. It's transparent, it's clear we know what's happening and we should do more of that.
Joe Spielberger: [00:31:16] It's a great question. And because of the amount of turnover and change that exists from administration to administration, you know, we are certainly mindful of any positive reforms that we see can easily be undone as agency heads change, as there's a change in new administration. But what I've seen and what's been really helpful, especially in some of the more problematic agencies and different departments, you know, under new leadership, they can make important steps. And one thing that has been really encouraging is we've worked with staff at the Department of Veterans Affairs that historically has been abysmal in so many ways, especially around protecting the rights of whistleblowers and understanding the impact that that has on the standard of care that veterans receive. But with new leadership comes more transparency sometimes, and we've been able to have thoughtful, ongoing conversations with folks in those offices who are committed to reforms and righting the ship. And so just having an open door policy there and being able to provide feedback and hear the work that they're doing to try to change things internally is really helpful because we also, as much as we advocate in a lot of ways against these agencies, we want to be really helpful partners and to be resources for different ideas and different reforms and to really build those partnerships. And so even though we know that, of
course, communication does not by itself solve all of these systemic issues, just being able to be present in those rooms and to be part of those conversations and see where we can be good partners and partner together in smaller, incremental ways to try to get towards the changes we want to see is really encouraging.
Mila Atmos: [00:33:32] Yeah, culture and leadership matter. Right. And being partners with people who want to advance transparency matters. So we talked earlier in our conversation about how everyday people can get engaged and demand transparency from government by reaching out to their elected representative. What's another thing an everyday person can do to demand accountability?
Joe Spielberger: [00:34:00] So one other thing that I think is really exciting, that is probably something that not a lot of people really think much about, is taking advantage of being able to engage in the federal rulemaking process. So especially when Congress is at a standstill and not really passing a lot of legislation, federal agencies are still coming out with regulatory changes. And oftentimes they openly solicit comment where any member of the public can write in and give their feedback. And depending on the rule and the agency, sometimes they're more or less respondent. But a lot of times they do try to really read through all of those comments and take those comments into consideration. And so that's something that I want to recommend, because, you know, as much as we talk about the impact that comes from reaching out to your member of Congress, sometimes it's hard to know is the person who I'm talking to on the phone really listening, or are they just getting ready to hang up the phone or throw my email in the trash? But at least through the rulemaking process, there is an opportunity. And from what I've seen, a lot of times agencies do take those comments. Not always, but oftentimes they take those comments seriously and try to address them. And so that's another simple way that ordinary everyday people can have a say and weigh in on important matters that the government is proposing.
Mila Atmos: [00:35:40] For sure that's true. I mean, I live in New York City, where congestion pricing was first floated 15 years ago. There was a time where you could come and make comments. There were open hearings. And yeah, I totally agree. People should, you know, if they have an opinion on this, they should go to these hearings, attend them and participate and, you know, have their say.
Joe Spielberger: [00:36:00] Yeah. And I think that that's also like one of the more positive things that came out of the pandemic, right, is that there is more opportunity to be engaged remotely, you know, and agencies and different forums are live streaming proceedings and everything like that. So it's not something that you have to be living in the DC area or anything like that. You can still be engaged and watching congressional hearings and keeping track of what's happening, calling your member of Congress and staying engaged in that way.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:35] Right. Yeah. All that matters. Being well informed on what's really happening. So as we're rounding out our conversation here today, looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?
Joe Spielberger: [00:36:47] I'm hopeful about a number of things. First and foremost, what gives me hope is knowing that people are engaged on these issues. They recognize what is happening in this country and they are speaking out and being more involved. I'm really privileged in my position to be able to work closely with very passionate and committed and good people both here at POGO and among the many different organizations and other people that we partner with. And we know that progress is difficult. It takes a long time. It's never inevitable. But we are on the side of strengthening our democracy. We are on the side of speaking truth to power, and we are on the side of making sure that our federal government remains a beacon for good, that it belongs to the people, that it serves them fairly effectively and with transparency and accountability. And we're in a position to make sure that that remains something that's worth fighting for.
Mila Atmos: [00:37:57] Mm. Wow. Yes. That is indeed something very hopeful. Thank you for doing all that work at POGO. And thank you for joining us on Future Hindsight today.
Joe Spielberger: [00:38:06] Thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure.
Mila Atmos: [00:38:10] Joe Spielberger is the policy counsel for the effective and accountable government team at the Project on Government Oversight.
Mila Atmos: [00:38:23] Next time on Future hindsight, we're joined by Wendy Davis. She's a former candidate for Utah House of Representatives and the author of The Fight You Don't See, a brutally honest memoir about her campaign.
Wendy Davis: [00:38:36] One of my objectives, one of my friends said to me, at the end of this race, you want to run so hard that you leave a body mark in the wall. And that's exactly what I did. I ran so hard and left a body mark in the wall that nobody, mainly myself, can say, you didn't work hard enough. I did everything that I knew that I could do at the time, and just fell short by less than 1%. I think it was even less than half of a percent.
Mila Atmos: [00:39:03] That's next time on Future Hindsight.
And before I go, first of all, thanks so much for listening. If you liked this episode, you'll love what we have in store. Be sure to hit that follow button on Apple Podcasts or the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app, so you'll catch all of our upcoming episodes. Thank you! Oh, and please leave us a rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. It seems like a small thing, but it can make a huge difference for an independent show like ours. It's the main way other people can find out about the show. We really appreciate your help. Thank you.
This episode was produced by Zack Travis and me. Until next time, stay engaged. The Democracy Group: [00:39:59] This podcast is part of the democracy Group.