Indictment Is Accountability: Allison Gill
November 3rd, 2022
“Get engaged and, at the very least, vote.”
Dr. Alison Gill is a veteran, former federal government executive, and Host of Mueller She Wrote and the Daily Beans Podcast. We discuss democracy, accountability and all the legal troubles the former president is facing, and the power of your vote.
Your vote matters and can deliver accountability at the ballot box, which is why there are so many efforts to suppress it. Personal outreach and relational organizing are the most effective in turning out the vote. Democracy really is in peril and the rights of women have been and voting is one way that we have the power to protect it. When it comes to accountability for the former president, an indictment would be justice at work.
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Allison Gill
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producers: Zack Travis and Sara Burningham
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Allison Gill Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:00] This episode is sponsored by the Jordan Harbinger Show, a podcast you should definitely check out. I enjoy the show and I think you will as well. Search for the Jordan Harbinger Show. That's Jordan H A R BINGE R in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:22] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos. I worry about the worry. I'm aware of the fact that that is a very on brand thing to say for a middle aged woman. But let me be more specific. I worry about the worry about our democracy. There's a way in which all the talk of our democracy on a precipice is a turn off, right. It's a de-motivator. It can do the opposite of what we need right now and leave voters feeling powerless rather than empowered. And so we're looking for the antidote to that feeling on this, our last show before the midterms. Joining me is Dr. Allison Gill. She's a veteran, former federal government executive and host of Mueller, She Wrote and The Daily Beans. Allison, welcome to Future Hindsight. I'm so glad you're here.
Allison Gill: [00:01:24] Hi Mila, it's so, so great to be here. Thank you for doing this. Your show is so important, you know, in discussing what we can actually do to make a difference. So I appreciate you and I appreciate being here.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:34] Thank you. So, you know, I've been truly wrestling with this tension, this election cycle between raising the alarm and turning people off. And I wonder if it's something that you think about, too.
Allison Gill: [00:01:46] I do. And I think sometimes the way we frame it has a lot to do with it. There are times when I talk about the perils of democracy on the precipice, like you say, but when I think we frame it in a "what you can do to help save democracy, simple steps that you can take," it kind of takes that looming cloud of fear away and I think gives people a little bit of of hope that their voice matters and can make a difference. And anyone who thinks that your voice doesn't matter, my little podcast from my kitchen table, the Trump administration reached down and plucked me out and took
me out of my job. And so every single voice can make a difference and can have an impact. And again, that's why I think the work that you're doing is so important.
Mila Atmos: [00:02:31] Well, I totally agree that every person can make a difference, and hope and action are part of the antidote, right? I've also been thinking about an antidote to those feelings of powerlessness and overwhelm maybe being accountability. I loved what you said on the Suburban Women Problem podcast, and we also love them. Rachel Vindman has been a guest in Future Hindsight, too. But anyway, on that show, you you said that this is the decade of accountability. So can you talk about that a little bit?
Allison Gill: [00:03:03] Yeah. I think the thing that really puts worry in a lot of people's minds is that for the past five or six years, we've had a runaway criminal administration, just crime after crime after crime. And, you know, recently we're starting to get more evidence of potential crimes that are happening, you know, through the Eastman emails. And we're just kind of piling up this giant mountain of evidence. But nothing seems to be happening because of the slow pace of justice. And, you know, frankly, the weaponization of the Department of Justice under the previous administration. And it is exhausting and can feel defeating. That sort of concern and fear is very real to voters. What I've noticed is that through actions that shows like yours give just very small things can give you a sense of feeling powerful. And, you know, just text banking for a day. I knocked doors for for Mike Levin in Orange County. It really made me feel like I had some sort of control over this chaos, what seems like just absolute powerlessness. And that is why I love these vignettes, these things that we can do, these practical applications that we can take to make a difference. And, you know, like I've said so many times, if your vote didn't matter and your voice didn't matter, the opposing side wouldn't be spending billions of dollars to try to convince you it's meaningless.
Mila Atmos: [00:04:27] Oh, yeah. I want to go back to justice and the law, which is clearly your lane. So I wanted to dig in on the January 6th committee hearings. They have just wrapped up in what is likely the last hearing with a subpoena for the disgraced former president. What do you think the hearings achieved? And was the subpoena the right way to go?
Allison Gill: [00:04:49] Yeah, I think what the... You know, the goal of the hearings as set out in Resolution 503, you know, which we hear about at the opening of every committee hearing, is to find out what happened and to advance legislation or make recommendations to prevent it. Much like the 911 Commission, a secondary sort of inadvertent purpose of the hearings is to kind of prep the country for possible criminal indictment of a former president. And that has happened. The percentage of of Americans who think that the former president is somehow criminally culpable has increased significantly since the hearings began. And I think that, you know, once Merrick Garland signed off on that search warrant, he took three weeks to decide. He wasn't necessarily just deciding on whether or not to search the home of a former president. I think he was deciding, "hey, if this bears fruits of a crime, I have to prosecute. I have to follow the facts and the law without fear or favor." And so he's prepared, I think, to do that if the evidence bears it out, which I think it does. But we also have to make sure the American people are prepared for that kind of eventuality, because that's never happened in the history of our country. And I think that the January 6th committee was successful in telling the story and showing the American people that there were crimes committed here.
Mila Atmos: [00:06:13] Yeah, I think they really do a good job. It's very compelling. It's almost like reading a whodunit novel, and you want to just know what's going to happen next, what's going to happen next. But, you know, you say that A.G. Garland waited three weeks to sign, and I have heard you say that you think he will indict Trump. And I think you might be right. But I also think it's kind of unlikely, right, that he'll actually serve time or face real accountability. So I worry that could be another type of Mueller report in terms of watching him escape accountability yet again. And what does that do for the credibility of Democrats and also the credibility of democracy as a governance system? What would accountability look like in your mind?
Allison Gill: [00:06:58] And that's the big question, right? And I think the onus is on the media to sort of frame what justice looks like, because otherwise you can just keep moving the goalposts. For me, it's indictment, because indictment is deterrence. Now, it's also not up to the Department of Justice. It's up to a jury of peers to decide whether or not to convict. And then it's up to a judge to decide what the sentence will be. And I do think if he is sentenced, he probably will be able to serve that sentence out, like in Mar a Lago with some ankle jewelry because of the complications of the Secret Service.
And, you know, we've never jailed a former president. I would like to see him go to prison. But to me, in my mind, justice is accountability. That's the indictment. That is the government of the United States Department of Justice saying you have committed a crime and we are going to prosecute you. What happens after that is kind of out of the hands of the government. And so that's where I put justice. But some people think justice is slapping treason charges and having hangings in the town square. And I try to explain that that is not going to happen. And if that, that is your goal and it's not reached, are you going to feel disillusioned about justice in this country? So I think we have to be very careful about what we think justice is. I think we really need to be honest with ourselves about what justice looks like in this particular case and that we're not putting it so far out of reach that we're just going to end up being disappointed by it.
Mila Atmos: [00:08:26] Oh, yeah, I like the way you put that, that essentially, you know, we have to think about an indictment in and of itself as justice. Right. That he is, in fact, being indicted as opposed to just being able to skate away with it all. Well, and then there are all these other things that he's facing, you know, the financial stuff by the New York attorney general, Tish James, and a bunch of these other cases, the E. Jean Carroll defamation lawsuit. And then this is actually kind of out of, not really out of left field, but people don't really talk about it, the Celebrity Apprentice multilevel marketing scheme, class action suit, and his niece, Mary Trump's fraud case against him.
Allison Gill: [00:09:04] And the Securities and Exchange Commission, FINRA in the Southern District of New York are investigating Trump's truth social DWAC for criminal activity. So, I mean, there's so and the Fulton County District attorney is.
Mila Atmos: [00:09:19] Yes. Yes. In Georgia.
Allison Gill: [00:09:20] And there's absolutely, like it's hard to keep them all straight. And so, you know, some folks are on the team like "somebody will get him" and some folks are on the team "everybody has to get him." It's going to be interesting to see how all of this plays out. But, you know, as you said, I am confident based on that three week deliberation to execute the search warrant at Mar-A-Lago, that he will be indicted for the documents case. We will see about the fraudulent elector scheme. As you know, recently, we've got more evidence that he willfully and knowingly signed false information into a lawsuit and filed lawsuits, not for legal relief, not for what the courts
are supposed to be used for, but in order to obstruct that an official proceeding, which is the Electoral Count Act. So he's got so many criminal and civil suits going. But I think the Tish James one is the one that could do the most damage, even though it's not criminal. I think it could do the most damage.
Mila Atmos: [00:10:16] So well, out of all of these -- and some people have said, of course, with Tish James that he has already moved all of his assets in New York State, although he can't really uncouple himself from New York because that's where most of his assets were and are. But of all of these cases, which one are you watching most closely?
Allison Gill: [00:10:33] Right now, and I think maybe it's just because it's front and center in the news and poses the biggest national security threat is the classified documents case. It's the most open and shut. It's where we just have overwhelming, I mean, there's overwhelming evidence everywhere. But this is very straightforward. And I think it is the one that could be indicted the fastest, you know, with the January 6th fraudulent elector scheme. There's 1,000 people wrapped up in that that have to be interviewed and all these a lot of people think that technology makes investigations go faster. It actually slows them down because you have to go through all the emails and phones and text messages and Signal messages and all that stuff. So that could take quite, quite a bit of time. So right now my focus and for national security reasons mostly is on the Mar-A-Lago documents case.
Mila Atmos: [00:11:21] Well, I want to circle back here and ask you why you think the Tish James case is potentially the most damaging.
Allison Gill: [00:11:28] Because that goes right at his ego, his money. He's been, I would say, lying to the media. And the media has been helping him seem like a very rich, rich man over the decades. And that's his persona, That's his ego. That's what feeds him. And if you take that away, take away his ability to run a business, take away his ability to make real estate transactions, not just for him, but for his kids and and take away his money, that losing the presidency, losing that election in 2020, and losing it for the Senate too, and then losing his businesses and not being able to to be an executive or run his businesses or do any real estate transactions in his, in New York, is going to be devastating to his ego.
Mila Atmos: [00:12:10] Oh, yeah, I haven't thought about it that way, but that's totally spot on. Of course, you know, he is so much about his ego. All of it. You know, it's so interesting. Of course. You know, I've been living in New York since 1993. And so for people in New York, the fact that he ran for president and that people outside of New York think that he's like some hotshot real estate tycoon, we just laugh about it and we're like, Who? What? No, not him.
Mila Atmos: [00:12:35] We're taking a short break to thank our sponsors. When we come back, what does the woman behind Mueller, She Wrote think of the Mueller report three years later. But first, thanks to the Jordan Harbinger show for supporting Future Hindsight. Jordan combines in-depth interviews with some of the world's most fascinating minds, like General Stanley McChrystal. They take a deep dive on leadership, discussing how there's no single style that's right for every leader, the danger of common myths about leadership, and so much more. You'll always learn useful advice from the heavy hitting interviews on the Jordan Harbinger Show. And that's just the beginning. On Feedback Friday episodes, Jordan responds to listener questions about everything from conventional conundrums, like asking for a raise at work to doozies, like helping a family member escape a cult. So whether Jordan is conducting an interview or giving advice to a listener, you'll find something useful that you can apply to your own life, like learning how to ask for advice the right way, or discovering a slight mindset tweak that changes how you see the world. Search for the Jordan Harbinger show that's Jordan H A R BINGE R in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.
Mila Atmos: [00:13:48] And now let's return to my conversation with Allison Gill. So I wanted to ask you about your handle and your origin story. In podland, you know, at least you started as Mueller, She Wrote and the Mueller report is often described as a quote, "nothing burger" and as evidence of hysterical progressives pursuing political vendettas. It's three and a half years since the redacted Mueller report was published, and here we are talking about all these subsequent investigations, not to mention the impeachments. So how do you view the Mueller report now?
Allison Gill: [00:14:26] I view the Mueller investigation the same way I viewed it when I started the podcast. I knew it was going to be historically significant and important, and I
wanted to, you know, cover it weekly as it was happening in real time. And I believe now that the Mueller report and the findings will, you know, stand the test of time. And I think that the immediate reaction to it had a lot to do with the way that Barr and Trump spun it and inappropriately redacted it to make the Russian interference look less than it was, kind of cover up the depth and the breadth of the Russian interference. But for me personally, we had a really big win recently when the Durham investigation who Barr selected to go in and go around the world and travel around and find out all, you know, just charge as many crimes as he could in the investigation, in the Mueller investigation and the previous CROSSFIRE hurricane, which turned into the Mueller investigation and dude came up with nothing. And the most recent, you know, Sussman was acquitted. Danchenko was acquitted. The only thing he got was a guilty plea from a mid- level FBI lawyer who altered an email. And that wasn't even Durham. That was the Inspector General that did that investigation. And that guy spent zero days in jail. So, you know, that is just sort of vindication for, I think most of us who have read the Mueller report and know that it's not a nothing burger. I mean, 180 contacts with Russia, ten at least counts of obstruction of justice and volume II that says to us that the Russia investigation was not a hoax, which we knew all along. The hoax was the Durham investigation. And so I think history will show the importance and the impact of the Mueller investigation. And I think it will show the perils of ignoring the Mueller findings as Russia continues to interfere in our elections.
Mila Atmos: [00:16:15] Oh, yeah. I mean, I actually read the Mueller report, and I remember thinking at the time, people are not talking about this in the right way. I mean, I was like, this just blows your mind. It's so clear. And actually, I wonder what you think about what's going to happen, what's going to be revealed once it is no longer redacted. Like what else are we going to find out? Or do we really actually essentially know what happened?
Allison Gill: [00:16:38] I think we know because, you know, Judge Sullivan came in and said Barr, you know, inappropriately redacted a bunch of it, those redaction bars came off. Most of the second volume of obstruction didn't have a lot of redactions in it. And pretty much everything that remains redacted should remain redacted. It's either grand jury information or privacy information, people's emails and phone numbers, maybe some health information. I think most of what we know or can learn from the Mueller report is already out from under redaction bars. It's just that nobody really talks
about it. It was sort of set aside because that same month we found out about the whistle blower and the perfect call to Zelensky and the quid pro quo with with Ukraine. So everyone's attention shifted. And so I think I don't think we're going to learn much more from the Mueller investigation until ten or 15 years from now when they start putting out documentaries about it.
Mila Atmos: [00:17:33] Right, Right. And your podcast will be a part of it.
Allison Gill: [00:17:36] That was the whole goal right from the beginning. One of the cool unintended consequences is this incredible community of amazingly plugged in active people who actively want to help preserve democracy. And again, that is why I say shows like yours are so important because you give practical pieces of advice. You know, I'm up here like the Mueller report said this and you're like, you know, spend 10 minutes, text banking or, you know, practical, not as heady, like in the clouds, sort of philosophical things, like actual things that you can do to to have your voice make a difference.
Mila Atmos: [00:18:09] Well, we need, we need both, right? We need to know the heady stuff in order to take action. But let's talk about your newer project, The Daily Beans. Why did you start it and how is it going?
Allison Gill: [00:18:19] Well, after the Mueller report came out, I was like, there's going to be so much more news. And I mean, we just had, as you remember, a firehose of other stories that had nothing to do with the Mueller investigation. And I wanted to cover those, too. So we just started a daily morning news podcast with the same attitude and appropriate profanity as Mueller, She Wrote into into a daily news podcast. And so we've been doing it daily. Now I think we're on week 170 now, and wow, it's been absolutely wonderful. It's one of my favorite things to do is to take very complex issues that can make people feel helpless and relay them in such a way that lets everyone know that they're not alone and that they're not helpless. And some of this has actually got a lot of comedy to it, and we will see justice. It just takes a long time. So everybody, you know, like you talking about reframing your your expectations and things like that, but, you know, just putting out facts with swears.
Mila Atmos: [00:19:19] That's right. Well, I listen to your podcast all the time. I love it. It's definitely a great way to understand what's happening, because I think all of the time you read things or you hear things and it's framed in a way that sometimes I think obscures what's happened even more. And then you're like, Wait, what happened? I'm so confused, but I'm never confused when I listen to you. So thank you for doing that.
Allison Gill: [00:19:41] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, when somebody says, well, you know, the motion to appeal the judge canons orders and the district court for the 11th Circuit is got an expedited schedule. And so we can explain, you know, and it's like right over your head and mine too. Like, my eyes glaze over. That's why we had to make the Mueller report fun because it's a snoozer. But, you know, if you explain it, like, look, this judge can't have equitable jurisdiction, it would be like, and I always use the the example. I was watching I think Cops or America's Dumbest Criminals where a woman who was in the middle of a drug deal, got her money stolen and didn't get her drugs. And so she flagged down some police officers to help her get her money back. And the cops said, we can't give you legal relief for illegal activity, which means we can't give you equitable jurisdiction over inequitable behavior, which is what is going on in the Judge Cannon case. And so trying to break it down in those understandable ways, I think is one of the things that really helps people feel like they have some control because knowledge is the enemy of anxiety.
Mila Atmos: [00:20:48] Totally agree. Well, so as we talked about up top here, at Future Hindsight, our focus is on what everyday people can do to create change and invigorate our democracy. So I wanted to ask, when you're worrying about the future of our democracy aside and apart from the former president, who do you see as posing the gravest threat and why.
Allison Gill: [00:21:10] The Republican Party. Mila Atmos: [00:21:14] Writ large?
Mila Atmos: [00:21:14] Yeah, yeah. I mean, except for the ones who have, you know, like the Kinzingers and and the Liz Cheneys. Whoever thought, you know, we would be like on the same side of a fence with Dick Cheney's daughter. But here we are. But by and large, the Trump supporting MAGA, ultra MAGA, as as President Biden has called
them, semi-fascists. I think they're actual full on fascists. But they want to overturn your vote. They want to have state legislatures be responsible for picking the electors for your state, regardless of what the people say. They want to have the governor sign off on certificates of electors that the people didn't elect. They, you know, they want to suppress the vote. They want to strip us of our rights, you know, a national abortion ban, even though they come out saying, well, it should be up to the states, and then they'll they'll pull the rug right out from under you and put a national abortion ban out there. So that to me is that ... they're, they're burning books. What movie ever had the good guys burning books? And the thing that I think you know is important that we have to do is talk to our family, talk to our friends. Because, you know, you and I, we're in the weeds. We're in the midst of it. But there are so many Americans that just don't see it that way. All they notice are how things hit their pocketbooks or those what they call kitchen table issues. You know, I remember sitting there at a at a bar singing karaoke, and Roger Stone came up on the TV and I'm like, "Oh, that guy." And my friends, like, I don't even know who that is. And I was like, "What? You don't know who Roger Stone is?" But most people don't, you know. And so I think that that's why the education, the grassroots work, the getting your family and friends involved is so very critical.
Mila Atmos: [00:22:54] Yeah. Wow. I really have to pause here and think. I, I'm just shocked that people don't know who Roger Stone is. But I think that's true. I mean, anyway.
Allison Gill: [00:23:03] Like want to talk to your friend, And you're like, "Hey, did you see that 11th Circuit appeal?" And they're like, "No."
Mila Atmos: [00:23:08] No. And why should I care? Why should I care? I don't understand what it's about. But as you mentioned just now, it's really about talking to friends and family. And we just had Amanda Brown Lierman on of Supermajority, and she emphasized how key it is for women to have those conversations, you know, to engage in relational organizing. You know, we are the natural organizers and natural storytellers, and we can convince the people in our inner circle to get engaged and at the very least, vote, or be more informed. I think there is like if you don't even know Roger Stone is, I'm sure that you are just swimming in misinformation. You just don't know what's happening. It's too confusing. Well, I think this is what's difficult about this time as well, is that there is so much information. It's like you said, it's like a firehose.
And it's very difficult unless you're paying very close attention to make sense of what's happening, and and who is going to be held accountable in the end, if at all? And what it means at the ballot box? So speaking about the ballot box, do you think that we will see accountability there? After all we've talked about with Tish James, the civil case in New York and the January 6th committee, I wonder if American voters are going to hold folks accountable. And I'm thinking about Greg Abbott in Texas over abortion and gun violence or DeSantis in Florida over censorship and homophobia. Or do you fear, as I do, that inflation or the economy might trump everything else?
Allison Gill: [00:24:42] Yeah. And the best way I can talk about this is, it will be what it will be. But no matter how much of a blue tsunami we had in 2018 or how much of a blowout we had in 2020, I'm always very nervous about what the electorate's going to do and what's going to impact the electorate. I don't listen to polls. I think they're useful. I don't, I'm not saying like don't ever do polls again. But, you know, I never rely on them for what, you know, what we should or shouldn't expect. It's just all I can control is what I do. And that's why the advice that you, you all are giving is so important. You know, when I talk to my family members, some some men in my family who weren't otherwise going to vote because these things don't impact them, I say, please, then just do it for me, for my rights, for my right to bodily autonomy so that I don't end up having to carry a rapist's baby to term or being discounted when my health is is in danger, which is just I know you weren't going to, but if you would just do it for me, it'll just take a second. Here's where. I'll give them the information. And I've gotten a lot of response. You know what? For you, I'll do it for you. And so that's, that's how, that's the how we can have an impact on the people in our lives. And that is what we can control. I have spent my life in therapy trying to not worry about things that are beyond my control. But I still, you know, every... I remember in 2020 when the Red Mirage was happening, which is, you know, all of the votes counted that day from in person, came out to make it look like Trump was going to win in a blowout. And I'm like, nope, I've been talking on my show about this to to tell people, don't worry, all the mail in votes are going to be tabulated. Let's wait and see what happens. But I'm still always very nervous. So, you know, that is why I recommend people take your advice that you give on your show and just do what you have control over. Because it's like when I was a Denny's waitress, "Look, man, your your cheese sticks are going to come out when they're going to come out. I'm not going to cry about it." That's sort of sort of the way that I look at it.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:48] You can't control when they're coming out. You're just there to deliver it from the kitchen to the table. Yeah, well, you know, one of the things that I was just thinking about when you were saying about men voting for you, I think one of the things that's really lost in the abortion debate is that it affects everyday people. There are so many people who have complications in pregnancy, you know, having ectopic pregnancies or having cervix problems. And I just kind of feel like when people are not of childbearing age, they don't know how common it is, how prevalent it is, and how it affects both women and men and their families. You know, I think one of the stories that I read recently was about how in the sixties, basically before Roe was decided in the Supreme Court, you know, husbands would be begging doctors to give their wives abortions if they had complications because they said, "look, my wife is going to die here and we already have two children and I'm going to be a widower. I'm going to have to raise my children by myself." And they were like, "Yeah, sorry, our hands are tied." But also, abortion is an economic justice issue. And so,
Allison Gill: [00:27:58] Yes.
Mila Atmos: [00:27:59] Yeah, you know, like how is carrying a pregnancy you cannot
afford not an economic issue, which is to say, how is this not a kitchen table issue?
Allison Gill: [00:28:08] Mm hmm. Well, I think, you know, a lot of times it doesn't hit their understanding button until it happens to them. And, you know, we've we've had a lot of stories about Republican women who have now had ectopic pregnancies, have been bleeding out. And they're like, "oh, I get it now." But it is interesting that we have to frame our arguments in that way, right? Like sort of back off a little bit and say, I'm for abortion up to viability or for ectopic pregnancies. Look, your bodily autonomy is if you want to have an abortion for no reason other than you don't want to have a baby, that is a protected constitutional right under privacy. And and that should be the way. It's just you know, we're now I feel like we're back to a kind of, not walking on eggshells so much because there are a lot of people screaming in the streets. There are a lot of women screaming in the streets for their rights. We seem to feel like we have to frame it in a certain way as to not offend people. You know, sometimes I'm like, maybe we're just not there yet, but it impacts everybody, everybody, whether you can get pregnant or not and it can hit people's pocketbooks. For example, you get these ectopic pregnancies, in the E.R. it's going to cost you another $100,000 to care for this patient.
And if they don't have insurance, who do you think pays for that? Like Jesus? No, he [laughter] He's not going to come in and pay your hospital bill. We're going to see it impact us in so many ways. We don't understand in so many communities that we haven't even thought of. It just hasn't been long enough for that many people to be impacted to think about it outside of their own world, you know?
Mila Atmos: [00:29:35] Mm hmm. Yeah, totally agree. So as we're getting very, very close now to the election. What are two things an everyday person can do between now and Election Day?
Allison Gill: [00:29:45] Well, you know, like I was saying, talk to your family members, not just your nuclear family, but, you know, Uncle Frank or your grandma's brother or whatever, and just ask them if they're going to vote. And if they're not, say, "would you do it for me?" and have the information of their nearest polling location and hand some registration information. That kind of personal outreach is so much more effective than than pretty much any other way. And then I would say the other thing to do is find a winnable election in a swing state, maybe for the House. Like pick something, pick a candidate, pick a race, and then find out from, you know, usually mobilize.us how you can text bank for a couple of hours or write some postcards, have a party at your house, get some champagne out, talk about how cool it's going to be when Trump is indicted and write some postcards to Arkansas. You know, just something, because I promise you, if you haven't done it, the feeling that you have after it, you feel so big and so tall and so important and so impactful. I can't even explain to you how good it feels to just be in it, for even if it's just for an hour.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:56] Yeah, totally. I agree. It's so important to check, as you mentioned, that folks you care about have a plan to vote. Like where are you going? Like you said, have the polling location information. Are you going before, after work or mailing in and, you know, offer support for those who don't know. It's so important. The research has shown that if you have a plan to vote, you are more likely to vote. So as we are closing in towards the end of our interview here, looking into the future, what makes you hopeful.
Allison Gill: [00:31:25] In 2016, after we found out that Donald Trump had been elected, the thing that gave me hope was when Barack Obama came on, I think Pod
Save and said, "look, the young people, the kids now in four years, eight years are going to be of voting age and they are going to wash over this country and just show us how amazing young people are." And that was my hope then. My hope now is what we saw happen in Kansas when abortion was on the ballot and we were all expecting, and the polls were saying, it was going to be razor thin and it was a blowout. It was an absolute blowout. And so that that is what gives me hope is that there are so many millions and millions of voters who we haven't really heard from. We only hear from, you know, extremists on the right. And, you know, our little group of folks on the left who are very, very involved. But I think that there are millions and millions of people who are very upset that their rights are being taken away and that democracy is in peril. That's my hope that we're going to be hearing from them. And I look forward. I like I think about myself two weeks after the election and being like, "oh my gosh, America, you have surprised and amazed me again."
Mila Atmos: [00:32:47] Yeah, well, I, I have to say here that when we interviewed Jason Stanley, you know, the philosopher at Yale who wrote How Fascism Works, and and he said at the end that, you know, what gives him hope is that there was the civil rights movement in the U.S. and that we have overcome these tremendous odds to make life better for everyone. And that makes him proud to be an American. So I also want to recommend to you and to all our listeners to go back and listen to a recent episode for a pep talk ahead of the election. And that is the one we just did with Gen Z for Change. It's fantastic. It's really, it's very hopeful and it really kind of puts into perspective what it means to be a young person and what it means for them to be hopeful.
Allison Gill: [00:33:33] Yeah, the kids are all right and Gen Z for Change is such a wonderful organization and and that, you know, takes me back to the prompt of Barack Obama talking about the kids and that's them now. Then here they come, and they are mad.
Mila Atmos: [00:33:47] That's right. That's right, they are. Well, Allison, thank you very much for being on Future Hindsight. It was really a pleasure to have you on.
Allison Gill: [00:33:54] Mila, it's always great to talk to you again. Thank you for the work that you're doing. It's so, so very important. I appreciate your time.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:00] Thank you. Dr. Allison Gill is a veteran, a former federal government executive, and the host of The Daily Beans podcast.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:12] Next week on Future Hindsight our guest is Thaddeus Johnson. He's a former police officer, a senior fellow at the Council on Criminal Justice and assistant professor of criminal justice and criminology at Georgia State University's Andrew Young School of Policy Studies. It's this really broad ranging conversation about law enforcement -- so much I didn't know. And it's also a hopeful conversation. Thaddeus is all about empowering communities and citizens so we can all be safer. Don't miss it. That's next time on Future Hindsight.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:48] We're also active on Twitter and would love to engage with you all there. You can follow me @milaatmos. That's one word, Mila Atmos, or follow the pod at @futur_hindsight. This episode was produced by Zack Travis and Sara Burningham. Until next time, stay engaged.
The Democracy Group: [00:35:19] This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.