The Future of Abortion Rights: Andrea Miller
MAY 26, 2022
“Abortion access is so essential to equality.”
Andrea Miller is the President of the National Institute for Reproductive Health. As we await the Supreme Court’s decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health, which will likely overturn Roe v. Wade and the right to abortion. We discuss how we got here and how we can prepare for the unwelcome reality of a post-Roe America.
Abortion access is essential to equality, bodily integrity, community safety, and the economic future of all Americans. Everyone knows and loves someone who’s had an abortion. Banning it will radically change the ability of people in half the states to make decisions about their reproductive lives. In our federalist system, work at the state and local level is more important than ever before.
Follow the National Institute for Reproductive Health on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/NIRHealth
Follow Mila on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/milaatmos
Follow Future Hindsight on Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/futurehindsightpod/
Sponsors
Thanks to Avast for supporting Future Hindsight! Head to Avast.com to learn more about Avast One!
Love Future Hindsight? Take our Listener Survey!
http://survey.podtrac.com/start-survey.aspx?pubid=6tI0Zi1e78vq&ver=standard
Want to support the show and get it early?
https://patreon.com/futurehindsight
Check out the Future Hindsight website!
www.futurehindsight.com
Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Andrea Miller
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producers: Zack Travis and Sara Burningham
-
Andrea Miller Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:00] Thanks to Avast for supporting Future Hindsight. Avast's new all-in-one solution, Avast One helps you take control of your safety and privacy online through a range of features. Learn more about Avast One at Avast.com.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:14] We're excited to announce that we're now partnering with MSW Media Network, the people who brought you Mueller, She Wrote, and so much more. We're delighted to be in such great company and thanks for such a warm welcome.
Mila Atmos: [00:00:30] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos. We are in the in-between times, post-leak and pre-official ruling. According to a draft opinion authored by Justice Samuel Alito, the Supreme Court is set to overturn 50 years of precedent and a constitutional right affecting millions of Americans: the right to an abortion as enshrined in Roe v. Wade. According to reporting from Politico as recently as early May, Justice Alito's draft opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health was the only opinion circulated among the justices, and it is a strident, unequivocal rejection of Roe v. Wade and also Casey v. Planned Parenthood, two cases that form the jurisprudential underpinning of the right to choose in America. I think many people are in a kind of shock as we wait for the other shoe to drop with a court's final decision expected in the next couple of weeks. While we wait, we need to prepare. And for that, I'm joined by Andrea miller. She's the president of the National Institute for Reproductive Health or NIRH, and its Action Fund, which builds power at the state and local level to change public policy, galvanize public support, and normalize women's decisions about abortion and contraception. Andrea, welcome to Future Hindsight.
Andrea Miller: [00:02:10] Thanks for having me, Mila. It's great to be here. It's actually great to be back.
Mila Atmos: [00:02:13] It's great to be back. I know we had a great interview very early on in the podcast and it's really still one of my favorites. I kind of want to start with what's going to happen after Roe v. Wade is overturned. Does it really change the landscape? How does it change the landscape?
Andrea Miller: [00:02:32] Overturning Roe versus Wade will have actually a dramatic impact on the landscape in this country. The reality is that one in four American women obtain an abortion in their lifetime. So we're talking about something that impacts a very large proportion of the population. And we are at a moment when almost half of the states have ginned up laws that could allow them to ban abortion outright in the days, weeks, and months after Roe versus Wade is overturned. Within those states, you're talking about roughly 35 million women of childbearing age, live in those states. About half of the women of childbearing age live in the half of the states that are about to ban abortion. And as a good friend and ally likes to say, Renee Bracyy Sherman likes to say, "everyone knows someone who's had an abortion and everyone loves someone who's had an abortion." You may not know it in your daily life because you may not be talking about it, but that is a fact. So when you think about the notion that we could have half of the states very quickly ban abortion, you are radically changing the ability of people in half the states to make decisions about their reproductive lives. So this affects women. It affects families. It affects children. It affects communities because access to abortion is not only a health matter, allowing you to have control over your body and your health, but it impacts what happens with your family. It impacts your community. It's going to impact the infrastructure of health care in the states both that ban abortion and in the states where it's going to continue to be legal.
Andrea Miller: [00:04:15] It's going to impact the economic circumstances of people who are not able to obtain abortion care. It's going to affect the economic circumstances of people who are traveling to try to get abortion care. It's not just a ripple effect. It's a tsunami effect. And I think we need to be prepared for that. There will be a lot of harm. There'll be a lot of pain. There will be a lot of hardship because of this. And it will potentially radically transform our society in the same way that Roe versus Wade and access to abortion and the right to make decisions about our reproductive lives, the right to decide about your body, your family and your future. Radically in a positive way altered our society. It allowed women to participate more equally. It allowed for the ability of other rights to be established, the right to marry for those who are same sex. You know, the rights to ensure that states are not banning sexuality and sexual expression between people of the same gender. I mean, there are many, many other things that Roe versus Wade has allowed to usher in, in terms of how we organize our lives, as well as the economic and cultural circumstances that we're going to have. So
this is going to be a radical, radical change in a very negative way. And everyone needs to be thinking about it because it will affect everyone in some form.
Mila Atmos: [00:05:34] Right. Right. Well, I think it was really good to point out that all of us know somebody. I think that's 100% true.
Andrea Miller: [00:05:39] And all of us love somebody.
Mila Atmos: [00:05:40] And all of us love somebody who's had an abortion. That's right. Yes. So it's probably worth noting here that in many parts of the U.S., access to abortion has been curtailed to the point of not being a fully functioning right for a number of years now. Right. Like in the case of many poor women since the Hyde Amendment. You're saying that it's going to get worse, but it's not going to be uniform. Right. How is this going to be varied?
Andrea Miller: [00:06:08] So you're absolutely right that we already have this frayed and increasingly fraying patchwork that will soon be full of lots and lots and lots more holes when it comes to access to abortion care. That's because the reality is that states have really always dictated this question. And since Roe versus Wade, more than 1300 laws against abortion have been passed at the state level. So this is not a brand new thing. This has been a culmination of decades of work of those who are opposed to reproductive freedom. And now it's potentially going to culminate in outright bans in many of these states. At the same time, you have states that have been moving more and more quickly, especially in recent years. And this is really the the bread and butter bailiwick of what the National Institute for Reproductive Health does, and that is to enshrine these rights into their state laws and to enact laws that expand the affordability, accessibility, and availability of abortion care. So countering the Hyde Amendment by bringing funding at the state level to bear and at the city level to bear. So you have already a polarization in the states in terms of the ones that have made it exceedingly difficult, if not impossible for many to get abortion care, and then those that are moving in the opposite direction, in an affirmative direction, saying we recognize and want to affirm and value the needs, the wants and the desires of the majority in this country.
Andrea Miller: [00:07:32] And we're going to do that through our state laws. So what we anticipate is that you're going to see a magnifying effect and exponential harm in those states where abortion is about to be banned, will be banned. And, of course, as is so true with so many aspects of health and well-being and economic circumstances in this country, those who are most impacted already and those who will be most impacted in the future. Our communities of color, especially Black, indigenous and Latino communities, as well as those who are struggling to make ends meet. Working hard to do that. But just the financial resources aren't there. Young people, people living in rural communities, that's where we're going to see the greatest harm. We know that already because that's where we're already seeing the greatest challenge in terms of access to reproductive health care, including abortion.
Mila Atmos: [00:08:22] Right. So how are you thinking about your state level work in the face of a possible federal ban? Right. Like, I mean, maybe I should have asked you this first. If you think a federal ban, which has been floated by some folks in the GOP, is that, is that actually possible?
Andrea Miller: [00:08:38] Well, look, I think we have to be really clear that those who are opposed to abortion are truly willing to do anything and everything possible. They have gone so far historically to murder people over this issue. They have murdered doctors. They have murdered nurses. They have murdered other people who have worked in clinics. They have murdered people who have been trying to secure the clinics. I mean, they are willing to do anything. So I think we have to be ready and anticipating that when someone like Senator Mitch McConnell says that if the GOP takes over the Congress in the midterms and then takes over the presidency in another two years in 2024, they are ready to try to ban abortion outright nationwide. We have to take that seriously. We have to believe them, take them at their word, because now they're at least being honest that that is fully what their agenda is or a part of their key agenda. That said, we also firmly believe that there is a lot that we can do both to prevent that happening at the federal level by voting and doing all the things we need to for Congress in the midterms and for the presidential election and additional congressional races in 2024. But the reality is that there's so much states can do. We have a federalist system in this country, and this is a time to lean into that when it comes to advancing access to reproductive health care, including abortion.
Andrea Miller: [00:09:52] So in my view, the work that we do at the state and local level has never been more relevant, never been more important, because whether you're talking about being able to pass new policies and laws like we're seeing in states like New York and Illinois and California and Oregon, new funding mechanisms to expand the infrastructure and the capacity of health care providers, knowing that this influx may be coming, knowing that we may be having to prepare for lots more people coming from other states. So you're seeing those kinds of things happen that can really help us move forward. Those are the kinds of things that we know we can do in the immediate term. And we know that even in those states that are likely to ban, even in those states that have been incredibly restrictive. We don't have a majority in those states that want abortion to be banned. I mean, there was just a University of Texas Austin study that showed that 15% of people in Texas want abortion banned, 15%. That's about equivalent to what it is across the country. So we know that we need to do the long term work to be making the case for why abortion access is so essential to equality, to bodily integrity, to community safety, and the economic future of individuals, families, and our communities, and our states.
Andrea Miller: [00:11:04] So I think that there's something that can be done at the state and local level everywhere, and it's also the place where people can really get involved. You know, elected officials and candidates in your local community are the people you go to the grocery store with or the people you know that you're at the dog-run with. They're the people whose kids go to school with your kids. You see them at the park, at the soccer game, whatever it is you're doing. These are people that are in your lives. And each of us has an opportunity and I believe truly an obligation to engage with them now more than ever and say, "listen, you are in elected office, you want to be in elected office. This matters. This is important to me. It's important to my family. It's important to my community. And I want you to not just say that you're with us, but I want you to prove that you're with us and that you're going to do something either now because you're in office or when you get in office to expand access to reproductive health care, to state your views and values cogently, clearly and confidently. Because you know that we are all with you."
Mila Atmos: [00:11:59] Yeah. Good advice. Good advice. Well, so we know that a lot of these things revolve around lawsuits -- and staying with the states, this decision will open up a can of worms, obviously, in terms of jurisdictional battles. What are you
seeing in terms of penalties for crossing state lines, for abortion care? And are we just looking at nonstop lawsuits from now on?
Andrea Miller: [00:12:20] I mean, the truth is we've sort of had nonstop lawsuits around abortion since Roe versus Wade. And I do expect that it's going to be a whole new level of questions that are going to be brought forward. For instance, whose state laws will prevail if there's a conflict between them, if there's an attempt to ban at the federal level, does that supersede state law? Does it supersede state constitutions? You know, these questions are really thorny and we don't have clear answers for them. We know we have the right to travel in this country. Hopefully that would be considered supreme and that people could travel without penalty and punishment. But we also know that those who are opposed to reproductive freedom are willing to push every boundary and beyond. And that includes talking about penalizing people who cross borders, people who provide care to those who've crossed borders. And that's why the flip side is, can we find ways in the states that are going to be protective to say we're going to shield people from that? Again, it's a thorny legal question. We can try to do that, but we just don't know how it's going to play out. And I have to say, in addition to the lawsuits that are sort of in that like lofty zone, I mean, none of this is really lofty because it's real people's lives. But these sort of like constitutional questions, these sort of legal questions, there's a whole other avenue when it comes to the law and our carceral system that is going to be implicated immediately and already is being implicated, and that is people being prosecuted for managing abortions on their own terms, for helping people get the abortion pills or otherwise terminate their pregnancies.
Andrea Miller: [00:13:54] And we know that overzealous prosecutors, even now, when the law is super clear that none of these laws are supposed to be applied to people who are terminating their pregnancies, or, for that matter, people who are miscarrying and where they are presenting in a health care facility because they are having a miscarriage. We have already seen people prosecuted because they have miscarried because they have terminated their own pregnancies. And we have to understand, this is where this has radical implications for the whole country. Imagine now in half the states, the carceral system, law enforcement, being emboldened even more to go after people for their reproductive decisions. I mean, that is shocking, but it is not unthinkable when you realize what we've already seen, and that is this willingness to try to prosecute people. We've had people sit in jail for helping their friends get abortions. We
have people who've sat in jail for having miscarriages. All of these things have already come to pass in thankfully not enormous numbers, but every single one of those cases is a tragedy for that family, for that person. And we know that law enforcement and the carceral system will be brought to bear in this circumstance. We've already seen it. These laws often have felony penalties, potential jail time, big, big fines, all of those sorts of things. So we have to remember that that's another piece of the really complicated legal puzzle that people need to be aware of, because I think they will be shocked and appalled at what this can mean in terms of how it changes our society.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:32] Yeah. Well, all that talk that we're not going to actually punish women is all empty talk. It turns out we are punishing women, depending on the state.
Andrea Miller: [00:15:40] That is absolutely true. And this, you know, all you have to do is step back and say, if you really cared about women and children and families, if that were truly your goal. Then you would be doing very different things in these states. When you look at the states that are ginned up to ban abortion, these are the same states that have abysmal maternal mortality and infant mortality rates, that refuse to expand Medicaid or refuse to expand, even take the state of Mississippi, which is at the center of this moment because it is a Mississippi case that's pending before the Supreme Court. The state of Mississippi refuses to even take advantage of the fact that the federal government now allows with huge resources available to a state. Obviously, Mississippi is not a state that has a lot of resources at its disposal, huge resources available to expand Medicaid postpartum from 60 days to 12 months. That could be transformative for the health and well-being of mothers and children. But they don't want to do that. They do not care. This is about power and control, pure and simple, which is why the same people and the same states that are trying to ban abortion are engaged in more and more voter suppression, are engaged in attacks on the LGBTQ community, and on trans youth. These are all the same people with the same agenda. That agenda is control and power and trying to maintain an outmoded, never truly real vision of what our culture and society should be that says, "if you can get pregnant, you have a particular role you are supposed to play. And sex is only about one thing and that is reproduction. And only certain people should have rights and those people are white men." So I think we need to remember that like this is all interconnected and this notion that this is about protecting anyone. All you have to do is look at what they do. Don't
listen to their words, look at their actions. That's really what tells you what's going on here.
Mila Atmos: [00:17:41] Right. Right. Like is this whole movement to end the right to abortion, about contraceptives, about reproductive health care, about zygotes and embryos and fetuses, or is it really about white supremacy, essentially?
Andrea Miller: [00:17:57] This is the perfect storm of white supremacy, misogyny, and homophobia coming together. And you have to remember, I mean, give credit to tremendous legal scholars and others like Dorothy Roberts and Melissa Murray, who have written about the direct connection between the anti-abortion movement, the opposition to abortion, and the opposition to contraception, and the ability to make decisions about your reproductive life and the history in this country of slavery and anti- Blackness. There's a direct link. You have to think back, slavery was all about control and it was all about building a workforce that had no power, and that could be abused and killed, and just worked to death. And the connection here, of course, is that particularly after the early 1800s, when you could no longer kidnap and ship slaves in from abroad, how are you going to build that workforce? The workforce gets built by controlling the fertility of Black slaves, of Black women. So, that meant that this concept of we want more slaves -- this is white supremacy -- to work for us for free under horrific, evil conditions. Then you take that base, you add to that in the mid 1800s the rise of white male gynecologists who wanted to take over controlling pregnancy. They wanted to take it away from the midwives and the homeopaths who were, by the way, largely Black and Indigenous and, you know, Native people. And they wanted to establish their ability to control fertility, control reproduction, and make sure that white women were having children so that the white race continued and Black women were having children so that they could continue to have enough slaves.
Andrea Miller: [00:19:58] And in the mid 1800s, that is when the abortion bans the pre Roe bans on abortion were mostly passed in the states. So there's a direct link. Then all you have to do is follow that trajectory into the middle of the 20th century when the segregationists were losing the battle against civil rights. And they needed something to get their base energized and they needed something that was going to allow them to cleave off southern white Democrats, the Dixiecrats, and pull them into the Republican Party. Now, let's remember, George Wallace, like "segregation today, segregation
tomorrow, segregation forever." He was the Democratic governor of Alabama. So it was those people and those voters that Ronald Reagan and his allies and his advisers in his first, his first race, that's where they went. They wanted to cleave off those kinds of voters. And they did that with white supremacy, with racism and with misogyny. That was the same guy who talked about the welfare queen and Black women having too many children. Right. So this is all interconnected. It's so deeply rooted in the ugly, hideous, toxic history that we have in this country of white supremacy and racism and misogyny and homophobia. It's all interconnected.
Mila Atmos: [00:21:23] It's been there from the beginning, all along. Andrea Miller: [00:21:25] In the beginning.
Mila Atmos: [00:21:26] Yeah, we have to just look at the history, which in some states you're not allowed to study anymore.
Andrea Miller: [00:21:30] Right. You don't want to study the history because you might actually discover this terrible history, which would then say to you, "maybe we need to go in a different direction, a better direction for everyone."
Mila Atmos: [00:21:39] Yeah. Let's take a little bit of a pivot here.
Andrea Miller: [00:21:42] Sure.
Mila Atmos: [00:21:42] I want to talk about contraception, because apart from the fact that the reasoning behind sweeping away Roe versus Wade also threatens the right to contraception, right, under Griswold. There is a total misunderstanding of what is an abortifacient and what is a contraceptive, and states are floating bans on the latter, like IUDs. So can you help us understand what's going on?
Andrea Miller: [00:22:04] Sure. First of all, I think there's never truly been a desire from those who are opposed to reproductive freedom to say, "oh, we're only about opposing abortion, we're not about opposing contraception." All you have to do is look at the hundreds, if not actually thousands and thousands of fake clinics around the country, the so-called crisis pregnancy centers, who give out false and misleading information
about contraception as much as they do about abortion. They have been opposed to that, there's no question. So what they try to do is they try to exploit misinformation and misunderstanding about biology and pregnancy. So what you're referring to is these laws that define pregnancy in the law in a way that is completely not medical. The medical definition of pregnancy is at the point of implantation. These laws try to say pregnancy starts at fertilization when the egg and the sperm say hello to each other. That is not a pregnancy. Lots of, you know, fertilized eggs never actually take. They do not become pregnancies. There are methods of contraception like the IUD that may act after fertilization, but before implantation. That's what they're trying to get at.
Andrea Miller: [00:23:11] They're trying to, like, figure out this roundabout way by using the law and twisting the concept and the medical definition of pregnancy, not using the medical definition of pregnancy, instead coming up with an alternative that they believe can sweep in contraception. And think about it, then you have to start asking like, "well, how do you know? How do you prove that?" Right. You have to prove something that's unprovable. And that's part of the point, is to create a chilling effect, to try to sweep in as much of the ways in which people are able to control their fertility and make decisions about their reproductive lives as they possibly can. And your point about the connection legally and the underpinnings of Roe and Griswold and Eisenstadt is also telling. Because again, it isn't just about abortion. It's about who gets to decide a reproductive future and your reproductive life, who gets to decide whether, when and if you're going to have children, who you're going to form a family with, who you're going to have sex with. This is all about control and power.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:18] Right. Right. Well, I just have a comment about the IUDs, because some of them are spermicide. Right?
Andrea Miller: [00:24:23] Right. That's true. That's true.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:24] Do we, like you know, if you talk about the right of the fetus, do
we need an autopsy for the sperm? The right of the sperm?
Andrea Miller: [00:24:29] Well, exactly. Right. I mean, that's that's where you you see how ludicrous this gets and you see how potentially invasive in people's lives this can get. Right. And that they're willing to go there.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:41] Totally. Let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. Avast is a global leader in cybersecurity for more than 30 years and trusted by over 435 million users. Avast empowers you with digital safety and privacy. No matter who you are, where you are, or how you connect, enjoy the opportunities that come with being connected on your terms. Avast's new all in one solution, Avast One, helps you take control of your safety and privacy online through a range of features. Learn more about Avast One at Avast.com. Avast's Antivirus stops viruses and malware from harming your devices. PC Speed Up manages the background data apps use and speeds up your PC. Smart Scan finds and removes viruses and fixes the most common issues with this optimization scan, and Data Breach Monitoring finds out if your online accounts have been compromised or your passwords need to be changed. I'm a fan of Avast's Firewall Protection, which prevents attacks that try to access your computer or steal your data. Free and premium versions are available. Avast prevents over 1.5 billion attacks every month, and with Avast One, you can confidently take control of your online world without worrying about viruses, phishing attacks, ransomware hacking attempts and other cybercrimes. Learn more about Avast One at Avast.com.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:14] We also want to shout out the Village Square Cast Podcast, a new podcast that just joined the Democracy Group. They call it the podcast your mother warned you about. Village Square Cast takes on the topics you're not supposed to discuss in polite company: politics, religion, and race, in conversations between people who don't look or think alike with respect, friendship, and even laughter. Over 15 years, the Village Square has hosted hundreds of gatherings with tens of thousands of people in bars and churches and even in the middle of a downtown street. And now they bring you their favorite conversations from inspiring leaders to cool people exhausted by the political rancor and looking for a better way. Check out Village Square Cast wherever you get your podcasts.
Mila Atmos: [00:27:09] And we're back, with Andrea Miller, president of the National Institute for Reproductive Health. So let's turn to the work of your organization. The National Institute for Reproductive Health. What have your successes been and how did you reach them?
Andrea Miller: [00:27:24] So I have to say the most important thing to know about the work that we do is we've always focused at the state and local level, and we do that not by being sort of a big national organization that builds a huge structure and comes in and like does things. What we do is we say our job is to work hand in glove with the reproductive health rights and justice organizations, the health care providers, the other social justice organizations on the ground in the states and at the local level, and really say, what can we do together that advances your community and advances your state? And so that's, I think, been the secret to our success, is that we're really doing that, bringing our expertise and respecting and elevating the expertise of people who are there and understanding that we don't know everything and we don't need to know everything. So the successes that we've had over the years have been actually quite a few. I mean, you look at even just the last three years, for example, we have now reached a point where we have 17 states in this country, plus the District of Columbia, that have enshrined rights for abortion in their state statutes or have repealed their pre Roe bans or have done both. Half of those did so in the last three years.
Andrea Miller: [00:28:39] The National Institute for Reproductive Health was a part of those victories, helped make those things happen in all of those states. Another great example of a success story for us is we understand that having the right to access abortion is not the same as actually having access to abortion. So we take it that additional step and we say, how do we get states and localities to provide funding those who do not have coverage for abortion care, whose insurance doesn't cover it, who are struggling to make ends meet? How do we get funding for the practical supports that cost you money like transportation and lodging and child care? Let's remember the majority of people getting abortions have children already. So there's a lot of cost barriers, financial barriers to obtaining an abortion. So some of our successes have been first -- we started with cities, New York, Austin, Portland, Chicago just did it $500,000 from the mayor -- and then we started moving up to the state level. Oregon, a $15 million fund that's going to cover abortions and practical support, as well as expand the infrastructure of reproductive health care in that state. As they look ahead to expecting a surge from states that are going to ban. New York just announced $35 million to beef up that infrastructure. Illinois, California, that's the kind of momentum we're building. We've been on the ground central, particularly those early wins, those first wins. And now we see the momentum and we see other people taking it up. That's exciting to me that like says we're on to something. We've helped remove barriers,
restrictive laws in states like Massachusetts and Virginia and Illinois and New York. Our work spans other issues in addition to abortion. We're expanding access to contraception all across the country, including access to IUDs, because there are cost barriers involved. And that's, we've done a lot of work to reduce those cost barriers. And we also work with organizations that are addressing maternal mortality, for example, expanding access to doulas, which we know can be such important partners in the pregnancy and birthing process and have been proven to reduce problematic birth outcomes. So that's really the work that we do. We've helped in cities like Louisville and Pittsburgh to get safety zones around their clinics. We've helped to get nondiscrimination ordinances in Saint Louis. You know, we look at what are the local solutions, what are the state and local solutions, that we can partner with these amazing groups on the ground and say, let's work together and we can get something done.
Mila Atmos: [00:31:06] Very exciting. So I'm going to ask you the flip question to this. How would you characterize your failure? And when I say you, I really mean the reproductive rights movement more broadly, right. With perfect hindsight, what would you have done differently? After all, we're now at the culmination of 50 years of a project from the right to ban abortion.
Andrea Miller: [00:31:28] It's a great question, and it's one, as you can imagine, we all are asking ourselves sort of what what can we learn from the moment we're in and what we have seen come to pass so far, to think about how do we really get more successful in the future? So I'd say a few things. First, we should be really clear that the blame for this rests squarely on those who have been on a concerted campaign to remove reproductive freedom in this country, the - rests squarely on them. So I think it's really important to put the blame where the blame really belongs. And I think it's important to say where might we do more or do differently so that we can build a response and turn this around faster? I do not believe it will take us 50 years to turn this around. I think it'll take us exponentially less. First of all, because the vast majority of people in this country agree with access to abortion care. They believe with Roe versus Wade. They don't want it overturned. And as you see the harm and people in this country see the harm, they're going to say, "whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no. Not on my watch, not during my lifetime."
Andrea Miller: [00:32:29] So the things that I would say we've learned, the work in the States has always been our bread and butter. It has always been what the National Institute for Reproductive Health has been about and the National Institute for Reproductive Health Action Fund. But I will tell you that we often felt kind of alone, not in terms of the great work of the organizations in the States, but because there wasn't as much attention from national organizations for many years, many decades, and from the political infrastructure in the Democratic Party. And so part of our loss is the same thing that you're looking at as to why you have so many state legislatures that are gerrymandered, that are... do not look like the views and values and goals and needs of the majority in their states, because the GOP has taken the opportunity to come in and say we're not really getting the kind of, you know, pushback. We've got a lot of resources pouring into the states and we're going to spend our time deliberately continually changing and taking advantage of every possible way to kind of torture our democracy so that they can seize control of state legislatures and seize control of governorships. And that includes voter suppression, and that includes anti-abortion rhetoric and shame and stigma and laws that make it less accessible. So I think that they put so many resources into that. And I think writ large, those of us who believe in reproductive freedom, including the wide range of progressive organizations and at the national level and the Democratic Party didn't put enough into the states soon enough.
Andrea Miller: [00:34:05] Right. So that's one of the reasons. I also have to be frank, the Democratic Party frequently not only ran away from this issue, but kept trying to make this big tent. You had the GOP that was absolutely crystal clear from Ronald Reagan on. Anti-abortion. Anti-abortion. We want Roe versus Wade overturned. We want to support all of these state laws that are going to make it more difficult. We believe the Hyde Amendment is the right thing, even though it was such an unconscionable barrier for people who are low income and particularly for people of color. Like they were crystal clear. And anyone who opposed that really didn't have long longevity as a political figure in the Republican Party. Right. Even though, ironically, Richard Nixon was the reason that we have a federal family planning program, Title Ten. But beyond that, really, they were singularly focused. The Democratic Party was like big tent. Everyone come on in. We don't care what you think about abortion. We're not going to really talk about that. We don't really want to talk about it. And as a result, they, first of all, diluted the power. They, second, added to the stigma and shame around abortion, and they didn't take the stand that was needed to be taken.
Andrea Miller: [00:35:10] Now, I'm pleased to see that there has been a shift in recent years. But it feels a little too little, too late. Which is not to say we don't embrace it and we don't want more of it. But I think that also really meant that you didn't have an even playing field. You know, the scales were completely uneven in terms of who was investing in this kind of work. Our opposition went strategic, went deep. They did it in the legislatures. They did it through the law. They did it by building the cadre of people that we now see on the Supreme Court. They were diligent and deliberative, and they took every chamber, every branch of government, and they said, "here's how we're going to do it. We're going to change state legislatures. We're going to take over state government. We're going to build a completely different set of legal theories, a whole different infrastructure in training lawyers. We're going to be a feeder through the Federalist Society for judges and judgeships. And we're going to make sure, for example, that the GOP triples down on making sure that their judicial nominees get put in place in every level." And the Democrats, again, didn't play the same game. And so we are now in a really uneven playing field.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:35] Mm hmm. Hmm hmm. Yeah. The opposition has played the long game for a long time. 50 years.
Andrea Miller: [00:36:40] That's right.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:40] But they were very clear about it from the beginning when they set out to do this. So speaking about politics, there is this pretty gross transactional take, right. That has said on the one hand, this could be good for Democrats because it may energize their voters. And on the other, it could be bad for Republicans because they have used abortion as a wedge. But overturning Roe is, in fact, not actually popular. So leaving aside the fact that such a take kind of erases the actual lives on the line in this decision, what are you hearing in terms of the political costs of this decision? After all, we're heading into midterms this year. So, you know, those are just a few months away.
Andrea Miller: [00:37:21] Absolutely. I would like to believe, given the vast majority of people in this country really do believe in the right to make decisions about your reproductive life, and we will see immediate harm. I mean, you cannot underestimate
what it would mean for nearly half the states to try to absorb the needs of the other half of the states. People will not get abortions. People will have their abortions delayed. People will have miscarriages that they shouldn't have had to have. There's going to be this massive impact. The harm, I think, is something that we kind of can't wrap our brains around yet. So I believe that it isn't just about people's beliefs, but about their compassion, their humanity and their belief that people should not suffer. And my hope is that will show up at the ballot box, that that will show up at the voting booth in the fall. And I do have faith that people will see that. How quickly the ramifications will play out given voter suppression, given the efforts to to take away people's ability to exercise the vote, and particularly those who are people of color, Black people, the people who also support, you know, exponentially overwhelmingly support access to abortion care. There's certainly ways in which the current structures of power and our democracy in quotation marks may make it more difficult for the ramifications to be felt immediately. But I have to believe that there's a political cost to the GOP for this campaign, and it may not immediately manifest. I hope it does, but I think we have to be very clear that if it isn't an immediate manifestation and an immediate repudiation, it doesn't mean that their campaign shouldn't be overturned, and it doesn't mean that it won't ultimately be rebuffed by the voters. We just got a hard row to hoe because they've made it difficult, the vast majority in this country to be accurately represented by their elected officials.
Mila Atmos: [00:39:25] Mm hmm.
Andrea Miller: [00:39:26] The gerrymandering is real. The voter suppression is real. The attempts to prevent democracy in its true form from really manifesting are part of the headwinds that we have to contend with going into this midterm election. So my short answer is, yes, I believe there is and should be a political cost to the Republican Party because this has been their agenda. It is a core part of their agenda, a pillar of their overarching agenda for trying to remake society and roll it backwards. It's actually not even backwards. It's sideways and upside down, and that many Democratic candidates should benefit from that repudiation of that agenda. And I'm also a realist and I know that it isn't as simple as everyone's going to be able to vote, and it's all going to change because we have seen time and again that, gosh, there are people who can become president without having won the popular vote. And in fact, then, like Trump, probably the best example did not win the popular vote and had the opportunity to
completely pack the Supreme Court, which is one of the very clear reasons that we are here today.
Mila Atmos: [00:40:42] Yes. So looking into the future about like how we can restore the right to abortions. You know, there's a complaint from some that Roe was an imperfect construct. And so is this an opportunity to get it right? Like, what would that look like?
Andrea Miller: [00:40:57] I mean, I think one of the things that we have an opportunity to do now is really to ground the right to abortion, like so many of our rights and our needs in equity and equality and freedom and liberation. And to say that it is about a collective view that people should be able to chart their futures, should be able to shape their families, should be able to do what's best for themselves and for their families and for their futures. And that the right and ability to access abortion care and to make decisions about your reproductive lives is a central component of that, as should be and as is. I mean, this is the reproductive justice framework that Black women and other women of color brought forward several decades ago, as is the ability to raise your children in a safe environment with financial stability that you can parent in a way that is supportive and supported by our society. So to look at it not as just like something that an individual sitting alone, which is kind of this notion of privacy, say, no, actually we all have a vested interest in building a society that recognizes the importance of treating people with respect and support and dignity in building toward liberation and freedom. And that includes economic security, you know, having a home and food, the things that are basic, and that includes the ability to make decisions about your reproductive life. So in the same way that we learned that Roe was insufficient, as soon as it became clear that the Supreme Court felt perfectly justified to uphold the Hyde Amendment that withholds funding for abortion care, including in the Medicaid program for those who qualify. And in fact, literally, it said, it's not our fault. It's not the government's fault that she's poor. So it's not our problem. So that's an example of we had Roe and yet within less than a decade, the Supreme Court could say, "yeah, but if you're poor, too bad -- your problem." So again, this is an opportunity to say we want to ground this in equality, equity, freedom, liberation, really thinking about this in a way that says what's the positive future that we're trying to build and make sure that this is a part of it.
Mila Atmos: [00:43:21] All right. So in that vein, as an everyday citizen, what are two things I could be doing?
Andrea Miller: [00:43:27] Well, first, I think everyone has a voice. And, you know, you certainly are doing a wonderful job of using your voice through this podcast and many other ways. But I think all of us have a voice and there is actually something quite revolutionary and transformative by just talking about abortion. I think one of the reasons that we are in the place that we are today is that we have allowed the opposition to shame us, to stigmatize this, to make it seem like it's not something you can talk about when it is something that affects all of us and is a central part of people's lived experience. So I think talk about it if you feel safe, which I hope most people do. Everyone should feel safe. But hopefully most people feel like they could talk to someone in their lives about this. And if you can go further post online about it, talk to your colleagues about it, make sure you talk to your elected representatives, let them know you expect they need to do something about this. So use your voice in whatever forum and forum you can. Don't give up your power. Your voice has power. So that's the first thing is use your voice in whatever venue you can to talk about why this matters to you, whether you've had an abortion, whether you think you'd ever have an abortion, whether you think you know someone who's had an abortion, whether you think you love someone who's had an abortion.
Andrea Miller: [00:44:44] Believe me, all of those things are going to be true for you. And challenge yourself to like push your comfort zone just a little. Because if we can all do that, it changes things dramatically. That's one you ask for. Two. And the other is find your space to get involved. There are lots of different ways to do that. Not everyone has to do it the same way. I think everyone who can should vote. No question. You should vote all the way down the ticket to every single level of government because it's critical in all levels of government. But there are other things you can do in your community. If you have a reproductive health clinic or a doctor who performs abortions in your community, go ask them how you can help. You would be amazed how grateful they will be. You could do so much by just starting to build community support and say "No. We recognize this is a valuable thing in our community. This is a valuable resource in our community. We want this here and we believe in this and we support you." That can be really powerful. Look for the other kinds of networks that are building. They have been
there for a long time, but they're building up that are going to help people with travel and transportation and child care and all of those things.
Andrea Miller: [00:45:48] The abortion funds and the practical support groups look for them and make sure that you're looking at them and the clinics and thinking about how can I support where I can support. Obviously, hopefully, people will support organizations like ours, but we're not alone in this. So wherever you can make a difference, do it. Offer to volunteer. You'd be amazed at what you may be able to bring to bear in these times. So I think own your power. Own the fact that you have the power of your voice that can be expressed in all these different ways, including at the ballot box, including online, including in your community, including with your family. And think about what's that one thing that I can do to show that I'm connected in and I want to do something about this. Everyone's going to have something different that they can do. But that's the thing is: find your thing. You know. Find your thing. Because trust me, it's out there. Wear a 1973 shirt like so many people are doing and engage in the conversation when someone comes up and says, 1973, what's that about? Well, it's my way of showing support for, you know, the promise of Roe versus Wade. Enter into a conversation. Yeah, very powerful.
Mila Atmos: [00:46:53] It is. It is very powerful. I like what you said there, that we should all own our power, because I think we sometimes forget just how much power we actually have as everyday, everyday people.
Andrea Miller: [00:47:01] And that's not to diminish that we're up against some pretty powerful forces. No question about it. But let's not give any of our own power away. Let's, like, really embrace it in this moment.
Mila Atmos: [00:47:12] Yes. Hear, hear. So as we're closing out our conversation, looking into the future, what makes you hopeful?
Andrea Miller: [00:47:19] I'd say what makes me hopeful, first of all, is I really do believe in the power of people. And I believe that people inherently understand the importance of these issues. And I think that that will only exponentially increase. I'm deeply, deeply wounded and hurt by the fact that so many people are going to probably suffer. But what really gives me hope is when I see the incredible temerity, tenacity,
creativity, just willingness to go the extra mile of the whole community out there. The people who are providing the care, the organizations that we work with day in and day out, in the states and in the cities, and the people who just are saying, like, what can I do right now? That's what gives me hope. Just seeing that, you know, the innovation, the creativity, the willingness to just say this matters too much, I'm not going to give up. That's what gives me hope. I have a lot of hope in new generations coming forward and owning their power in completely new ways and understanding the interconnectedness of these issues in ways that our generation just didn't as much. And I think is learning and trying to like catch up, you know, and get with the program. So I get a lot of hope from just seeing what the future can look like because of who's here now and because of who's coming next.
Mila Atmos: [00:48:35] Very powerful. Thank you very much for joining us on Future Hindsight.
Andrea Miller: [00:48:39] Thank you, Mila. It was really a pleasure to be here. Mila Atmos: [00:48:42] Andrea miller is the president of the National Institute for
Reproductive Health and its Action Fund.
Mila Atmos: [00:48:52] Next week on future hindsight, we speak to Amy Westervelt. She's a climate journalist and the founder and executive producer of the Critical Frequency Podcast Network. She hosts the Drilled and Hot Take Podcast.
Amy Westervelt: [00:49:05] People often look at climate accountability and think, "Oh, you just want to beat up on oil companies, or you just want to have someone to blame for this problem." And to me, I look at it as, "no, I want to really understand how we got to this place where a fairly small group of people have locked us into decisions that impact the whole world very negatively." You know, like, how do you get there and how do you start to solve that problem in a way that doesn't land us in a similar place 100 years from now?
Mila Atmos: [00:49:40] That's next week on Future Hindsight. This episode was produced by Zack Travis and Sarah Burningham. Until next time, stay engaged.
The Democracy Group: [00:50:00] This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.