Bail Reform’s Success: Alana Sivin
March 30th, 2023
“This idea that bail reform is contributing to a rise in crime – it's just not true.”
Alana Sivin is the New York State Director of Criminal Justice Reform at FWD.us. We discuss the history of bail reform legislation, the subsequent roadblocks, and the truth behind the efficacy of this policy.
Bail reform was passed to end a system of wealth-based detention of people who have not been convicted of a crime. Many of them are Black and brown. Verified public data shows that bail reform is not leading to a rise in re-arrest rates. It is also not contributing to a rise in crime. Alana says, “Bail reform has been an extremely successful policy that is not only good because it's the right thing to do for human beings, but it's also the right thing to do to create long-term public safety.”
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Credits:
Host: Mila Atmos
Guest: Alana Sivin
Executive Producer: Mila Atmos
Producers: Zack Travis and Sara Burningham
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Alana Sivin Transcript
Mila Atmos: [00:00:04] Welcome to Future Hindsight, a podcast that takes big ideas about civic life and democracy and turns them into action items for you and me. I'm Mila Atmos. Today's big idea about civic life and democracy is bail reform, two words that have almost lost meaning after becoming a shorthand political slogan on the right, especially among Republican presidential hopefuls. Bail reform is used to paint certain cities Democratic cities, as crime infested hellscapes. Here's Ron DeSantis speaking to the Fraternal Order of Police in Staten Island in February:
Ron DeSantis: [00:00:49] You apprehend a criminal, bring them in, and then they just release them. So you've got to risk your life again two weeks later to arrest the same guy all over again. How does that make any sense?
Mila Atmos: [00:01:02] Among progressives, bail reform has become a kind of shorthand for a whole host of criminal justice reforms. But today, we're actually going to talk about the policy of bail reform itself, not just the political maelstrom around it: what it involves, how it works, and what the results have been here in New York State, where a key bail reform law was passed in April 2019 and went into effect in January 2020. And we have some important new data and analysis that will help us understand the policy's true impact. To do that, I'm joined by Alana Sivin. She's the New York state director of criminal Justice Reform at FWD.US and ran for New York State Assembly District 65 in 2022. Welcome to Future Hindsight. Thank you for joining us.
Alana Sivin: [00:01:51] Thank you so much for having me.
Mila Atmos: [00:01:53] So I think bail reform is widely misunderstood. What exactly is
bail reform?
Alana Sivin: [00:02:00] So to sort of talk about bail reform, I think the best way to do it is to talk about the way the system worked prior to bail reform was put into place. So I was practicing as a public defender then, and we lived in this system where whatever crime somebody is charged with, whether it's petit larceny, whether it's trespass, a judge could say in order for you to be able to go home while your case is pending, while you're fighting your charges, while you are seeking to resolve your case, you need to
pay money. And we would see so many New Yorkers, mostly Black and brown, who were behind bars simply because they didn't have money to pay bail. And New Yorkers who were charged with low level offenses, non-violent offenses. And what bail reform did was made it so that for those charges, that couldn't happen anymore. So judges could only set bail on certain charges, not most misdemeanors and not non-violent felonies. And so that's what bail reform did. It made it so that people are not behind bars simply because they don't have money to pay bail for those sorts of offenses.
Mila Atmos: [00:03:08] So what were the effects of cash bail in the community?
Alana Sivin: [00:03:11] So many impacts from this system. Like there have been studies that show that even one day of pretrial incarceration can lead to huge destabilizing impacts. You lose your job, you lose an appointment at a health clinic, you lose your housing, all of these sorts of things that do nothing to contribute to public safety, in fact, that make communities less safe. And what we've seen since bail reform that people have been able to resume their lives. We've seen how there is $104 million that was not set in bail. And that's money that people are no longer thinking, okay, do I have to give up my grocery store money to be able to pay for my loved one to get out of jail? Do I have to give up my rent money? Do I have to give up my health care money? And so now people can be sure that that money is going to stay with their families, stay with their communities, so that they can get all of the things that they need to thrive and the things that keep all of us safer.
Mila Atmos: [00:04:05] Right. So thanks for helping set the scene for why the 2019 law came about. But now help us understand how. What was the journey of this law? How did it come to pass in New York in April 2019? And of course, it didn't take effect until January 1st of 2020. But what was the evidence supporting bail reform before it passed and how did it go through the legislature?
Alana Sivin: [00:04:26] I think there were a lot of factors that contributed to bail reform passing. One that was really tragic and that illuminated how terrible the problem was, was the death of Kalief Browder. As that became more public and as people saw this injustice of this young man who was behind bars for several years simply because he couldn't pay money to get out for allegedly stealing a backpack and who ended up dying by suicide. That was something that really provoked public anger, as it should. That, I
think, was one of the first steps that happened for a lot of the community coalesce around this bill. And then you had too... There were a lot of folks at the table. Law enforcement was at the table when this law was drafted and passed. Advocates didn't get everything that advocates wanted. And that's how we have the law that we have today. It's interesting to sort of think through that process because I think in a lot of the noise that happens around bail reform, we forget A) Why it was passed in the first place, which was to end a system of wealth based detention and B) that this was a really collaborative process that hurt a lot of different voices.
Mila Atmos: [00:05:32] It's interesting, you mentioned the police at the table. What were the things that they were advocating for? Because, of course, they're on the front lines.
Alana Sivin: [00:05:39] I think there are a lot of folks who would prefer that there'd be no cash bail at all. And I think what we have now, which is it's only for, quote unquote, more serious offenses, and those offenses keep getting added, by the way, in different rollbacks. And that's something that's definitely from law enforcement's perspective. And then I think, too, in the in the most recent round of rollbacks, there are a whole host of different factors that were considered that judges are now allowed to consider when they are deciding to set bail on somebody. So these are things that law enforcement had input in.
Mila Atmos: [00:06:09] So I want to go back to my introduction and, you know, there was so much heat and not enough light in public discourse about bail reform. And it's blamed for rising crime whether or not crime is, in fact, rising. It's described as a kind of attack on the police. So if you had to choose something, what is the most pernicious piece of misinformation about bail reform? What's a key thing people misunderstand or get wrong?
Alana Sivin: [00:06:39] That it's contributing to rises in crime because it's not. And so we at Forward.US did an analysis and an apples to apples analysis, which what that means is we specifically looked at cases that were affected by bail reform. So, looked at cases where judges could no longer set bail by law and compared the outcomes for those cases before and after bail reform. And we saw that re-arrest rates remain the same. We saw that return to court rates remained stable and in some places actually
improved. And so this idea that bail reform is contributing to a rise in crime, it's just not true. And that's not to say that crime isn't something people should be concerned with. Crime is scary. It's something I'm scared of. It's something that my friends and neighbors are scared of. But looking to bail reform is not the solution. The numbers say it's not the solution. And the things that do actually prevent crime, we're ignoring those because we're so focused on sort of this talking point that a lot of Republicans have put on the table. And even Democrats are sort of going with that same narrative when instead we should be focusing on all of the things that we know actually prevent crime: investments in summer youth programs, investments in supportive housing, expansion of health care. All of these things are things that can keep all of us safe.
Mila Atmos: [00:08:02] Well, in terms of the misinformation, which is that crime is rising because of bail reform, it's not only that there is this misinformation out there, but it's also the volume. And in your study, I noticed just how much there is. Can you talk about that?
Alana Sivin: [00:08:18] Yeah, it's quite fascinating and really astounding to see how, despite the fact that there has been study after study after study after study showing that bail reform isn't leading to a rise in crime, we still have more and more stories, and I think there are a lot of reasons for that. One, I think a lot of news outlets are relying on law enforcement. Maybe because it's easy. And I also think it's just an easier headline, but I would really love to see more outlets any time that there's a crime rather than automatically connecting it to bail reform, even when there's no connection to connect it to all of these other things that do cause crime or that could prevent crime if they were fixed. So, for example, if rather than there being some headline talking about, oh, there was this shooting and by the way, bail reform was just passed, what if that headline said "there was this shooting, and by the way, it's in a neighborhood where there's no summer youth program. Or by the way, this occurred at a time where housing accessibility is at its lowest. That I think would have a really big impact on the way that we all view crime.
Mila Atmos: [00:09:28] Um hum. Um hum. So well, in your view, where is the primary opposition coming from against bail reform?
Alana Sivin: [00:09:39] I think it's in a lot of different places. Um. The New York Post for one. You know, I can't wake up any day without The New York Post saying something about bail reform, even if it's not true. And fortunately, we have a lot of great news outlets and a lot of great resources that sort of debunk a lot of the misinformation that comes from there, like justice, not fair. They're a really great resource that debunks a lot of their misstatements in New York right now. I mean, the mayor has voiced his opposition to bail reform, although I think he's been a little bit less quiet about it as of late, which is, which is promising, I think. So those are, those are some of the outlets that I think have have have been pretty opposed to it. And then obviously, a lot of the Republican Party.
Mila Atmos: [00:10:22] Right. Right. So what do you think is the motivation and like, if this is working, is it just politics as usual or is there something else?
Alana Sivin: [00:10:30] I think it's a collective habit that we have as a society to consistently turn to punitive systems, to address crime. I think we haven't really leaned into other solutions. So we've seen rises in crime in certain types of crime, in jurisdictions, in all different parts, in places with criminal justice reform, in places that haven't enacted criminal justice reform. And so we know when really looking at the data, the two aren't correlated, but people have been taught for so long that the only way to address crime is is punish, punish, punish. I really think it's sort of this societal habit, and it's really one that we need to break because it's one that not only is completely ineffective, it also further destabilizes. I mean, this is something we saw in the 1990s and the, you know, the tough on crime era, the war against drugs, where that had generational impacts and specifically generational impacts on Black and brown communities that kept people less safe. And sometimes it's like hitting your head against the wall, seeing how we just keep going back to these same patterns. And, you know, they say it takes a long time for habits to break. And this is a collective habit that we have as a society to to turn to punitive solutions and not really think with nuance about them.
Mila Atmos: [00:11:48] Yeah, it's difficult to break a habit like that. Like you said, it's just so ingrained. But I can also tell you that the narrative that bail reform is the culprit is in everyday conversations, right? Like from neighbor to neighbor in New York City.
Alana Sivin: [00:12:02] Well, I'll also say, too, that, you know, when you tell people what bail reform really is and correct the misinformation, people support it because first of all, a lot of the cases that I hear about that people use to mention bail reform, nine times out of ten bail reform is not the cause. Like a lot of people will say, oh, this person, you know, committed this crime and they were let out and then they committed another one. And and a lot of times the judge could have said bail, but they didn't because a whole other host of factors or it's a type of crime that bail wouldn't have been set on even pre bail reform to begin with. And then I'll also say that a lot of people don't really understand that bail reform is something that is used to make it so that people who have been not convicted of crimes are not behind bars.
Mila Atmos: [00:12:51] Oh, yeah. Yes. People don't really understand what bail is. But as you mentioned earlier, bail reform hasn't been wholesale. The list of crimes eligible for pretrial detention and bail were simply reduced. So not all crimes are included here. So what are the exemptions and who is still being jailed pretrial at this time?
Alana Sivin: [00:13:12] So there were a whole bunch of new exemptions that were included in both rounds of rollback. So in the first one, judges gain the ability to set bail for over a dozen new charges, and some of those included burglary in the second degree. If the burglary occurs in the actual living area, which is an undefined term in the law, judges also gain the discretion to set bail on Class A misdemeanors or felonies where the alleged harm to an identifiable person or property by someone released also had an open case where there was also harm. And judges also received increased discretion to set bail or remand for people who are charged with a new crime while they were awaiting trial. And then there was a second round of rollbacks, which specifically included theft when it was in that harm to harm provision. So, for example, that made it so that if somebody was charged with two petit larcenies, they could have bail set on their case. And also the 2022 rollbacks expanded bail eligibility to possession of an unloaded firearm if the person was out on recognizance under conditions, or had not yet been arraigned for a charge for which the person was given a desk appearance ticket. And then also the 2022 amendments allowed judges to consider a bunch of additional factors when deciding whether or not to set bail on on some specific felonies, including criminal history, allegations of harm and previous possession of a firearm. So there are a lot of exemptions to this law, and those are just in the rollbacks. And it's interesting because there's all this talk of people who repeatedly are alleged to commit certain
crimes. There is this mechanism for that. Do I think it's a, it's a good provision of the law? No, to be honest. But it is there. Also violent felonies? Bail can be set on them.
Mila Atmos: [00:14:59] And is it normally set in violent crime cases?
Alana Sivin: [00:15:02] Yes. So just in early March, there was an op ed that was released in a news outlet in the Bronx that was written by a mother of somebody who he's been in jail pre-detention for 20 months and somebody who's been suffering with mental health issues and who has a mother who's willing to be there for him, support him in between his court dates, but is still locked in Rikers right now. So this idea that we're, you know, letting everybody free. That's not true. We're not just not letting everybody free. There are a lot of people who are still incarcerated at Rikers Island. In fact, last year, 19 people died behind bars in Rikers Island, many of them because they couldn't afford money to pay bail. And so bail reform has made it so that fewer people are behind bars. But it's certainly not ended this wealth based system of of of detention.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:54] Right. Right. It just made it easier for some, but not all. Alana Sivin: [00:15:57] Exactly.
Mila Atmos: [00:15:58] We're taking a quick break.
Other People's Pockets: [00:16:02] The thing that I most nosy about is other people's finances. I just want to ask people, how much money do you make and what have you figured out about money that the rest of us haven't? I'm Maya Lao and this is Other People's Pockets. The show where I ask people about their money because salary transparency is important and because we can all learn something from other people's financial mistakes and money hacks. Other People's Pockets is a co-production of Pushkin Industries and Little Everywhere. Listen to Other People's Pockets wherever you get your podcasts.
Mila Atmos: [00:16:34] And now let's return to my conversation with Alana Sivin.
There was a lot of noise as soon as bail reform went into effect in New York in 2020. And some almost immediate rollbacks that came just a few months later and more rollbacks yet a year after that. What were their effects?
Alana Sivin: [00:16:55] It's hard to determine the effects precisely, and that's because a change of conditions and environment. So pre rollbacks, we were right in the middle of the pandemic. There were a lot of folks who were pushing for COVID releases, rightfully so, because jails were one of the most dangerous places to be in at the time public health wise. But we certainly did see that there was a much more significant dip in the pretrial population before the first round of rollbacks than after. So part of that was due to COVID. But I also think part of that was due to the fact that the law was more comprehensive before that first round.
Mila Atmos: [00:17:29] Right. So since you just mentioned COVID, were you able to unpack the data in your study from the effect of COVID because you said you were comparing apples to apples? And how did you unpack the COVID data from the apples to apples comparison?
Alana Sivin: [00:17:43] Yeah, that's actually why we decided to use 2021 data and compare that to 2019 data, because it's the most accurate of a where we're at right now and how the law is doing right now. And also because with COVID, there are so many variables to consider that it's really hard to isolate similar conditions.
Mila Atmos: [00:17:59] Right. So I wanted to be clear when we're talking here about bail reform, that we're actually talking about New York State overall. So not just New York City, although New York City takes up a lot of the oxygen in the room. But I understand from your report that the effects of bail reform had some differences between New York City and the rest of the state. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Alana Sivin: [00:18:19] Huge differences. I mean, we saw how most of the reductions in the pretrial population and the rates of judge setting bail happened outside New York City, which is really interesting because folks like to, you know, paint New York City as the city that's been so misled by bail reform. But the difference in New York City, I mean, there has been a difference, but it's much smaller than it's been across the state.
I think there are a lot of reasons for that. Judges to begin with were setting bail at lower rates in New York City than they were elsewhere. I think people had access to a lot more pretrial services. So that's one of the reasons. I also think the pretrial population was probably lower at the time because of a lot of the bail funds that were helping out during that time as well. But it is it's really fascinating to see because you see New York City kind of targeted when really the impact has been more pronounced outside of New York City.
Mila Atmos: [00:19:13] Huh. Interesting. So you're saying that basically because there are bail funds available for people in the city and they have better representation, that they are less affected by by the problem of bail before reform?
Alana Sivin: [00:19:29] I wouldn't say it was better representation. I would say it's probably judges setting bail at lower rates generally.
Mila Atmos: [00:19:36] And why would they do that in New York City?
Alana Sivin: [00:19:39] I think it's a combination of things. I think there was the
anticipation of the bail laws coming.
Mila Atmos: [00:19:44] Uh huh.
Alana Sivin: [00:19:44] And so and I think there was more of this like public ethos and understanding of how, how it was the right thing to do. And judges have discretion and had discretion then and used their discretion to do the right thing, which was to release people who the law said should be released.
Mila Atmos: [00:20:00] Right, Right. Yeah. I think I was really struck in your reports that there were so many judges, or so many incidents that you cited, that didn't set bail, you know, because they thought, well, the re-arrest rate is really low for a lot of these small crimes, that there was no no reason to set bail. So what was your biggest takeaway from this data and your analysis? Were there any surprises in there for you?
Alana Sivin: [00:20:31] Surprises? I would say no. And I say that because what our data did was just confirm what we already knew and confirmed what a lot of studies had
already been getting at. So ours was the first apples to apples, but there had been several studies before ours came out that looked at overall re-arrest rates and overall return to court rates that showed that bail reform wasn't contributing to rises in crime. I think what did strike me was the role of media in a lot of this and specifically how right when bail reform passed, media really influenced public opinion even before it was implemented. So very shortly after implementation, we saw how public opinion went down. And it's sort of you can't attribute that to what actually was happening because it hadn't even been happening yet. It was all due to sort of this this public media and opponents sort of concertedly pushing against this law and how it affected the way that people thought about it. So that was really surprising to me. I will say what was surprising... Well, not surprising, but just very exciting in terms of data was to see all the good things that bail reform has done, though the amount of nights saved. I mean, 1.9 million collective nights saved that people are no longer spending behind bars because of bail reform. And this means that kids are having their parents at home tucking them into bed. People are back at work. People are earning wages. People are not missing their health clinic appointments. These are the things that are really exciting, especially because you couple that with the lack of rise in re-arrest and what you have is healthy whole communities that that are just being benefited by this law.
Mila Atmos: [00:22:15] Yeah. Well, I want to ask a follow up right here from this data. What do you hope a listener to the show will understand and take away from our conversation and the data?
Alana Sivin: [00:22:27] That bail reform has been an extremely successful policy that is not only good because it's the right thing to do for human beings, but it's also the right thing to do to create long term public safety. And when I say long term public safety, I think we forget about the impact that pretrial incarceration has on the ability of a community to thrive and the impact it has on generations of people who don't have the supports that they need. And when we enacted bail reform, it made it so people get those supports and it also made it so people aren't suffering behind bars simply because they don't have money.
Mila Atmos: [00:23:12] Right. Well, in your analysis, you showed that after the bail reform law passed or came into effect, more people actually showed up for trial. In one
of the studies that you cited, it went from the no show rate reduced from 15% to 9%. That's a big difference, actually.
Alana Sivin: [00:23:31] Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, yes and no. I mean, I had seen in my experience that when people have the supports they need, they do show up. Like simple things like phone call reminders, those sorts of things. And a lot of the pretrial services have provided that. And people generally take their court dates seriously. If people are able to be released, they want to fight their case. Nobody wants to have these charges hanging over their head. They want to be able to come back to court and to be able to resolve them. So I was very pleased to see that number because in many ways it confirmed what I had seen as working as a public defender.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:04] But I think that's a good point, that people actually take their trial dates -- their trial and their trial dates -- seriously, and they want to fight this case in Court.
Mila Atmos: [00:24:13] So the same month that Ron DeSantis was speechifying about how terrible bail reform has been to the Fraternal Order of Police on Staten Island, New York City Mayor Eric Adams went to the state capital, Albany, to ask for more reforms to bail reform. He said, quote, "A disproportionate share of the serious crime in New York City is being driven by a limited number of extreme recidivists. Approximately 2000 people who commit crime after crime while out on the street on bail." What do you think is the best answer to that?
Alana Sivin: [00:24:50] I mean, I would say the first is show me the data. A lot of this is in public. And so it's very difficult to be able to respond to something that that we don't have all the data for. I will also say to sort of as a bit of a side note, because it was also stated in some of the language that that DeSantis used when he was talking about bail reform, in addition to the use of the term repeat recidivist, it's really dehumanizing. People are not defined by the crimes that they're charged with. So we at forward try to use people first language, so people who are allegedly repeatedly charged with crimes, something like that. But that's just a side note.
Mila Atmos: [00:25:28] Right. No, but I think it's important because he's already made them out to be guilty, even though they have not been found guilty. They have not been in trial and convicted.
Alana Sivin: [00:25:37] Correct. And so he's given me nothing to show that this is due to bail reform. And I don't really know what this data is because it's not public. So it's really hard to be able to respond to that. But the data that's verified, that's public, that we can look at and analyze keep showing that bail reform is not leading to rise in re- arrest rates. So that's what I have to respond to that.
Mila Atmos: [00:25:59] Right. Right. Well, tell us about where you get that data, because I think this is also important. Tell us who collects the data that you analyze.
Alana Sivin: [00:26:06] So that's the division of Criminal Justice Services. And what's really great about the laws that were passed was that it requires New York to collect all of this really great comprehensive data with Division of criminal justice Services, working with the Office of Court Administration. And so these aren't like third party agencies, like these are the ones who are specifically involved in the court system, in the criminal justice system. So it's accurate data and it's really comprehensive. And so we should be looking at it. That's what we've done. And if we are looking at it closely, then we know that if we want to look to crime and look to reduce crime, let's leave bail reform alone.
Mila Atmos: [00:26:43] Yes. So we talked about the rollbacks and we've talked a little bit about the continued clamoring to rescind bail reform. Are you worried?
Alana Sivin: [00:26:54] Oh, am I worried? I can say I am motivated to fight against it. I think every year it's been a fight and every year we have seen how this law is scapegoated for whatever issues are happening in crime. I'm also really motivated and hopeful by all of the people who are who are pushing back by a lot of the legislators who are pushing back by a lot of the people who have been directly impacted by bail reform, who are talking about what a difference it makes. You know that that op ed I recently referred to, I think that gives me a lot of hope. Well, it gives me a lot of sadness, but also gives me a lot of hope that we are fighting for something that that is worth fighting for and that it's just a step. So if I'm being honest, I am a little bit worried because
there's so much at stake. The bail reforms, as they are now, are just the minimum of of what needs to happen because we still have a wealth based detention system. There are still so many people who are behind bars who haven't been convicted of a crime simply because they don't have money. Most of them who are Black and brown. We should be proud of the reforms that we've made because there are a lot fewer Kalief Browder's than there were before. But we can't hang our hat yet, and we can't say that we have a truly just criminal justice system yet because we're still suffering in it. And so I'm, I'm motivated. I'm fired up. Yes, I'm a little worried. But it also it also feels my fire and I think the fire of so many people who are fighting to make sure that all of these incredible gains that we gained in 2019 stay.
Mila Atmos: [00:28:38] Well, let's combat some scapegoating right now. What, in your view and in your experience, does actually work to advance public safety?
Alana Sivin: [00:28:47] So many things. Increases in housing, specifically supportive housing. There was a study conducted by the Corporation of Supportive Housing that shows that more usage of supportive housing leads to reductions of uses of the criminal legal system.
Mila Atmos: [00:29:03] Can you tell us a little bit more about supportive housing actually, it's...
Alana Sivin: [00:29:07] Sure. So it's wraparound housing that has all different sorts of services for folks within housing. And that's not the only type of housing, by the way, that actually reduces crime. More access to housing period will reduce crime as well. We know that Rikers Island is basically a feeder in many ways into the shelter system. And so providing folks with more housing would make it so that that cycle stops something else, increases in access to health care as well. So there was a study that talked about how Medicaid expansion led to reductions in arrests by 20 to 32%, which is huge. Investments in summer youth programs additionally have been shown to reduce crime. So these are all things that are super. Doable, super doable and super beneficial. And don't harm people who can argue with these things.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:02] Yes. Who can argue with these things. And like you said, they don't harm people.
Alana Sivin: [00:30:06] Right.
Mila Atmos: [00:30:06] Yeah. Yeah. Well, if you had a magic wand, what would you
choose to be the next piece of legislation? The next policy development for bail reform?
Alana Sivin: [00:30:17] Mhm. Oh, man. I want to go further. Don't get me wrong, I would love to go further. But the fight to keep it the same has been a fight. And so I would dream of a dream world where we don't have anybody who's incarcerated because they don't have money. Right. Like, that's a dream world. We don't have people incarcerated pre-trial. I think our legislature is not there. I think, though, in the meantime, one significant change would be simply so there is a provision in the law that requires judges to consider somebody's ability to pay. And they're supposed to consider that when setting bail. So saying, okay, you need a little, you know, money will make it so that you'll come back to court. But it should be money that hurts you, but that doesn't detain you. And clearly with all the people detained, they're not really considering ability to pay. So I would like to see, at least as an interim measure, something that actually holds judges accountable for setting bail in amounts that people can actually pay, because right now that's not happening. I mean, for a lot of people, the bail that's set, they just simply can't pay it. And judges know that. They know they can't pay it and they're effectively making it so that somebody is just incarcerated. In addition to an expansion of pretrial services that people can voluntarily choose to have because I also know that there are judges who would like additional services to be able to give people access to while they are out pretrial. But the community doesn't have those available. So, for example, if somebody is is unhoused, I've heard judges say, well, I don't know where to send this person. Like I don't know where they're going to go, so I'm going to set bail and so
Mila Atmos: [00:32:13] because they know that they're at least going to be in jail.
Alana Sivin: [00:32:15] Correct. And so I would like to see expansion of housing, right. So that people have a place to go and so that judges can know that people have a place to go.
Mila Atmos: [00:32:28] Yeah, that's good. So on this show, we hope to give folks the information they need to wield their citizen power. What are two things an everyday person can do to support bail reform? Two items for the Civic Action toolkit.
Alana Sivin: [00:32:43] Can I do a little more than two? This is one where I have more. Mila Atmos: [00:32:46] Okay, go for it.
Alana Sivin: [00:32:47] Okay. So first I would say correct people in your life when people talk about bail reform, refer them to justice, not fear. Refer them to our report to show how bail reform isn't contributing to a rise in crime, to talk about how isolated incidents, one, normally they're misreported on. And in the few sort of outliers that doesn't reflect what all of the data is showing and that doesn't reflect what policy actually says is going to keep us all safer. So I would say talk to folks in your family, you know, share this podcast or share our reports with five people in your life. So that's one thing. I would also say using people first language is really important because we've seen how using language like criminal offender, felon, all of these sorts of words really impact the way that people view crime, really impact the way people view those who are charged with crimes. So instead use words like person who is charged with a crime or a person who is incarcerated pretrial because those folks are people, their fathers, their sisters, their brothers, their their sons. And then the other thing I'll say, too, is so right now we are in the midst of a governor who is proposing rollbacks to the bail law. And so it is very valuable for folks to reach out to their legislators in New York state. And so I think you've included a link where you can type in your name and you can email your legislator to say that you don't want rollbacks to the law.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:18] Right. There'll be a link in the show notes. Alana Sivin: [00:34:21] Beautiful.
Mila Atmos: [00:34:23] So last question. Looking into the future what makes you hopeful?
Alana Sivin: [00:34:29] The results from from this report that was released last month that shows the benefits of bail reform and how many people are thriving as a result of it.
The fact that we fought so hard for this law in 2019, it passed and people's lives are changing. There are so many fewer people who are behind bars as a result of this of this law. There's so much money that's coming back into communities because of this law. And so that makes me hopeful that hopefully, little by little, we can start to break the generational curse of overincarceration that we have in this state and in this country.
Mila Atmos: [00:35:08] That is very hopeful. And I hope that you all succeed, that this movement continues to succeed and and maybe roll back the rollback.
Alana Sivin: [00:35:16] That would be lovely. Yes.
Mila Atmos: [00:35:18] Well, thank you very much for being on Future Hindsight. It was
really a pleasure to have you on the show.
Alana Sivin: [00:35:23] Thank you so much. It was really a pleasure to be here.
Mila Atmos: [00:35:26] Alana Sivin is the New York State director of Criminal Justice Reform at Forward.Us.
Next time on Future Hindsight, another chance to listen to my conversation with Anat Shenker-Osorio. If you missed this interview the first time around, you're going to want to make sure you've smashed the subscribe button for, this time. Anat is the campaign whisperer and she totally changed the way I think about how we talk about politics.
Anat Shenker-Osorio: [00:35:58] What effective voter messaging does is it builds a sense of agency and it speaks to the voter about their own power. So, for example, in 2020, we turned out in record numbers and we delivered stimulus checks and lifted however many million kids out of poverty. And in '22, we're going to do it again. You are the vital voters that are going to deliver for this country.
Mila Atmos: [00:36:26] That's next time on Future Hindsight.
We're also active on Twitter and would love to engage with you all there. You can follow me @milaatmos. That's one word M I L A A T M O S or follow the pod at
@futur_hindsight. This episode was produced by Zack Travis and Sarah Burningham. Until next time, stay engaged.
The Democracy Group: [00:37:01] This podcast is part of the Democracy Group.